McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality • Hacker News Board

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#21

Post by anbende » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:38 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #12

anbende wrote: post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

”if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that.” I think what’s wrong is that they don’t realize that the environment that’s causing stress is very damaging and they should change that environment instead of putting a bandaid in the form of mindfulness on it. Even worse is that they keep pushing that stress down the hierarchy causing harm to their employee…

Yes, and I saw that the author made this point as well. But again, mindfulness isn’t a stress lowering switch, it’s literally training in awareness of what is happening in one’s field of experience which includes a toxic environment if present. Awareness training should NOT render one insulated against your surrounding environment. It should highlight it as you become more aware and attentive.

Now, a LOT of mindfulness programs and teachers ARE essentially selling relaxation practices as mindful attention training, and I would agree that THAT is a problem. But the problem there in my view is not that the practice is being taught without morality or moral principle, but without actual awareness training. It’s relaxation sold as mindfulness. And I think that’s a shame, but I still wouldn’t deny anyone tools to relax. I just wish they wouldn’t call it mindfulness.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#22

Post by anbende » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:42 PM UTC

StuffedParrot wrote: post #16

anbende wrote: post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

> There’s only the strength of the programs and how much value people derive from them, and if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that. Mindfulness cannot fix the underlying problems that lead to mindfulness being useful to capital in the first place. Personally I’d rather my CEO make work less miserable and sleep that way (say, hire people for fewer ho…

I wholeheartedly agree, and to the extent that a program is simply soothing, then there isn’t any actual mindful attention training happening.

That’s my primary point, that attention training isn’t a salve, it’s awareness building. The problem with a lot of mindfulness “training” is that it’s really just group relaxation without training the kind of awareness that should be useful in any context.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#23

Post by Ididntdothis » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:44 PM UTC

anbende wrote: post #21

Ididntdothis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that.” I think what’s wrong is that they don’t realize that the environment that’s causing stress is very damaging and they should change that environment instead of putting a bandaid in the form of mindfulness on it. Even worse is that they keep pushing that stress down the hierarchy causing harm to their employee…

Yes, and I saw that the author made this point as well. But again, mindfulness isn’t a stress lowering switch, it’s literally training in awareness of what is happening in one’s field of experience which includes a toxic environment if present. Awareness training should NOT render one insulated against your surrounding environment. It should highlight it as you become more aware and attentive. Now, a LOT of mindfulne…

”I just wish they wouldn’t call it mindfulness.”

Yes, sell it as relaxation exercise or breathing practice. But don’t make people believe this has anything to do with Buddhism. We already watered down and distorted what people think yoga is. Let’s not do this to Buddhism.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#24

Post by Ididntdothis » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

jes wrote: post #19

Ididntdothis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that.” I think what’s wrong is that they don’t realize that the environment that’s causing stress is very damaging and they should change that environment instead of putting a bandaid in the form of mindfulness on it. Even worse is that they keep pushing that stress down the hierarchy causing harm to their employee…

It may also happen that as they wake up they discover other aspects of Buddhism that lead them to continue to evolve their practice so they are not harming others.

When I look at famous business people that claim to be practicing Buddhism and meditation I have my doubts. They still run greedy, selfish and exploitative companies. Steve Jobs is a good example.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#25

Post by gerbilly » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:46 PM UTC

anbende wrote: post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

> I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings.

Buddhism teaches that you should tackle the coarser causes of suffering first. If there is a thorn in your foot, no one is suggesting you should go do a good sit to deal with the pain. First you remove the thorn, then you sit.

In my opinion mindfulness at work (or anywhere) can be beneficial, but if we only use it to paper over the structural problems that make work life stressful for so many, we are losing the opportunity to eliminate the coarser causes of suffering.

Think of it as an 80/20 rule. Probably eighty percent of the suffering at work comes from twenty percent of the causes. We should be tackling those, and that requires political engagement. It may even require oppositional methods in some really bad cases.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#26

Post by triangleman » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

2 Cor 11:14-15

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#27

Post by anbende » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:50 PM UTC

jes wrote: post #19

Ididntdothis wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

”if 20 executives are able to sleep and handle their stress a little better, there’s nothing wrong with that.” I think what’s wrong is that they don’t realize that the environment that’s causing stress is very damaging and they should change that environment instead of putting a bandaid in the form of mindfulness on it. Even worse is that they keep pushing that stress down the hierarchy causing harm to their employee…

It may also happen that as they wake up they discover other aspects of Buddhism that lead them to continue to evolve their practice so they are not harming others.

Yes, and while I don’t teach corporate mindfulness currently, I have colleagues who do, and I believe they do so responsibly. When done well, it will sometimes pick up speed and initiate rather profound changes in corporate culture. Not always or even often (usually it just fizzles), but sometimes.

Corporate executives are people too, and somd of them (certainly not all) are good-hearted and honestly looking for a way to change their mild to severely toxic culture. And mindfulness training can help if done well, which it often isn’t.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#28

Post by factorialboy » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:56 PM UTC

Keep in mind Buddhist "mindfulness" is the repackaging of existing "Indic" ideas. This debate has been settled before. Repackage it as you like, as long as it reaches and helps people in need.

Is capitalist mindfulness doing that? I'm not sure. If you don't like capitalist mindfulness, do something about it.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#29

Post by anbende » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:57 PM UTC

gerbilly wrote: post #25

anbende wrote: post #8

Clinical psychologist who teaches and practices mindfulness here. I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. While to some extent it’s true that teachings have been adapted and the adaptations are sometimes (maybe often) problematic, the assertion that mindfulness training doesn’t belong in the boardr…

> I often hear the argument that the current applications of mindfulness in corporate or otherwise commercial settings are a perversion of the original teachings. Buddhism teaches that you should tackle the coarser causes of suffering first. If there is a thorn in your foot, no one is suggesting you should go do a good sit to deal with the pain. First you remove the thorn, then you sit. In my opinion mindfulness at w…

I agree that in a larger sense, there are often greater problems at work than the internal regulation of attention and stress.

From working with clients however, you might be surprised just how often people come in not realizing that they have what is essentially a giant thorn sticking out of their foot! Usually this looks more like chronic lack of sleep, a bad relationship with their spouse or even a toxic work environment, but shut inside their ball of stress and the narrow anxious attention that accompanies it, they miss the forest of causes for the more immediate trees of anxiety, tension and panic.

You might be surprised how often a person says “oh my god I’m tired and stressed because I haven’t gotten a good nights sleep in 10 years!” after a little awareness training.

Re: McMindfulness: How mindfulness became the new capitalist spirituality

#30

Post by BurningFrog » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 4:58 PM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #3

I once got an offer to teach a yoga and meditation class at a company. The stated goal was to give employees tools to handle stress better. I pointed out that the result of mindfulness would most likely be that people would see how harmful a stressful environment Is and either try to change it or to avoid it. Never heard back :) The same happened with yoga. We picked a very small part of the tradition as in asana and…

One of my favorite stories/theories is that Yoga isn't ancient and Indian at all. It's an originally Scandinavian thing that got exported to India in the 1800s.

https://mereorthodoxy.com/call-danish-gymnastics-yoga-body/