RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community • Hacker News Board

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#61

Post by lidHanteyk » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 8:46 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #46

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It mainly would not exist. Or if it did it would be very different.

This is falling prey to the great man theory of history. How can you know that nobody else would have championed FOSS if not for him? There are lots of FOSS advocates who were turned off to the whole movement because of him; what might they have done with him absent?

Sure, "copy-center" attitudes like those common in BSD communities would have prevailed, likely, and we'd have entered the shared-source/commons-licensing phase a decade earlier. Without the option of copyleft, an entire pillar of philosophy would be missing, but it likely would not matter, since the world would still be just as corporatist. The main thing missing in that world would be a belief that copyright can and will be changed in order to better suit the people.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#62

Post by ezkl » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

ac29 wrote: post #50

ezkl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly do you consider radical about his position in this instance?

Radical might not be my choice of words, but he's got a certain type of ideological purity around free software that's definitely on the extreme end. Here's a paraphrased version of what he's saying: "GitHub [...] has done terrible harm to our community. GitHub was so bad for free software, all along[.]" Now, if you were to define "our community" as the open source community, this would be laughable - very few people…

I absolutely agree. His lack of self-awareness and seeming inability to see the generally positive aspects of the growth of open source just doesn't sound radical to me. Quite the opposite in fact.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#63

Post by scarejunba » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 8:58 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #52

scarejunba wrote: post #34

This guy was my hero growing up because I'm fairly certain that the things the initial community set up is why open source is so common today. But now he needs a handler. My god, man. Get it together.

A handler now ? The linked article is classic RMS: pedantic, relentless, and reasoning so nuanced to the point of being indecipherable if not imperceptible to all but the few who have spent countless hours wrestling with RMS' ideas. If you assume RMS is smarter than you, or at least more analytically rigorous (like a computer)[1], then you'd be hard pressed to find anything RMS has said which isn't consistent with th…

The world's changed, man. He didn't. That's all there is to it.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#64

Post by ngcc_hk » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 8:59 AM UTC

Open source not free source get the movement above the ground. Sometimes what start (rms), what help (Linus) may not be the one that make it great.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#65

Post by tsukurimashou » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 8:59 AM UTC

ezkl wrote: post #17

tsukurimashou wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he really just speaks his mind, I'm not sure he is trying to be edgy or anything, he always had quite radical ideas and positions. I mean people have been calling him a lunatic for years, he has been fighting for free software and warning people about proprietary software and the obvious risks it carries. Despite being proven right about quite a lot he warned about, people views never really changed about him…

What exactly do you consider radical about his position in this instance?

Sorry I said radical because we use the same word in french but the meaning is probably a bit different, I should have said perhaps extreme or very opinionated?

I wanted to say that he cares very deeply about free software and the whole philosophy of it, which can make him appear as "radical" to some people.

I hope I was able to clarify.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#66

Post by devnonymous » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:21 AM UTC

sergiotapia wrote: post #16

wichert wrote: post #7

There is some awful stuff in that thread, like this gem [1]: After microsoft puchased Github, they encouraged "Codes of Conduct". So now 40k "opensource projects" hace CoC's. Obviously men won't be contributing to said projects, other than the people allready in them. [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-1...

Obviously it's hyperbole - but a lot of people are definitely put off by coc, myself included. It's a wretched, insidious text sneaked in by very bad actors into mainstream open source repositories.

> It's a wretched, insidious text sneaked in by very bad actors into mainstream open source repositories.

Replace text with code and think about how the supposed 'meritocracy' of open source deals with the problem? Isn't 'nobody is stopping you from forking it', 'submit a pull request', 'the community/bdfl has final say', not apply here as well? Or do the benefits of open collaboration stop at code?

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#67

Post by IshKebab » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:21 AM UTC

yozel wrote: post #51

dbdjfjrjvebd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We won't. You can't force me to contribute to your project and if it has such a coc I just won't.

Most CoCs are like “Thou shalt not kill” or more like “Thou shalt be an asshole”. How is it even possible to not agree with that?

They go a bit further than that, for example the second result in Google for "open source code of conduct" is this one: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con...

It includes things like:

* The use of sexualized language * insulting or derogatory comments * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting

Obviously on the face of it these are extremely reasonable. The problem is that they are also extremely vague. Is it ok to say "fuck" in a comment? Or is that "sexualized language"? Can I say "this code is stupid" or is that too insulting? What if it isn't directed at anyone?

The fear is that there is a certain kind of person who loves picking people up over these sort of inconsequential rule ("social justice warriors"). For some reason they like to get into positions of power and then enforce petty rules.

I don't think that happens 99% of the time, but it does seem like CoCs encourage it and I've never seen evidence that extensive CoCs help so why bother? Just put a comment in your readme like you suggested - "CoC: Thou shalt not be an asshole."

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#68

Post by em-bee » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:24 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #44

em-bee wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RMS argues against licensing under only a single version of the GPL obviously he prefers "GPL2 or later" and "GPL3 or later" does github offer that?

Yes. https://help.github.com/en/github/creating-cloning-and-archi... https://choosealicense.com

it takes some searching, but when one selects GPLv3 then the default text does indeed include the "or later" clause.

so not only is it an option, but it is the default option, because an extra step is needed to change that.

unfortunately, in my opinion, the whole choosealicense site could be improved a lot. for example the license templates could be actual form fields letting you fill in the details needed, and then producing a license text that is correctly filled out. as it is, some users will likely miss some fields

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#69

Post by laresistance » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:27 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #36

sergiotapia wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

before coc was snuck into these repos, was it just a shitshow of nasty people acting a fool in open source communities? I don't remember it that way.

I recommend you Google the name Linus Torvalds. You will find some truly shocking language directed at his fellow human beings.

Linus' use of explicit language was exactly something that should be used as an example. He rarely attacked people, but instead attacked the actions that they did or ideas that they had.

Re: RMS: GitHub has done terrible harm to our community

#70

Post by psv1 » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 9:28 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #67

yozel wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most CoCs are like “Thou shalt not kill” or more like “Thou shalt be an asshole”. How is it even possible to not agree with that?

They go a bit further than that, for example the second result in Google for "open source code of conduct" is this one: https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con... It includes things like: * The use of sexualized language * insulting or derogatory comments * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a professional setting Obviously on the face of it these are extremely re…

Even if we agree with everything in your comment, the question is "Is the <1% of the time this happens a good enough reason the reject every project with a CoC?". Personally, I would answer no to this.