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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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361–370 of 554 posts

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. I really like the way you put it. In isolation, humans today have essentially the same natural mental capacity we had 2000 years ago, but we've become part of a much bigger computer. A human brain 2000 years ago was a very isolated entity. Even in centers of learning in the classical era, the amount of knowledge one could tap into was v…

I've woven this sentiment into my philosophy. I feel computers (and the networks between them) are a natural evolution of our hive mind. When we first started taking spoken language and committing it to writing, we created a hive mind that extended beyond a generation. Prior to that point, everything was passed on through observation of other humans (observing behavior, observing speech, etc.). This meant everything…

I agree that this is an elegant lens with which to view the world, and I love writing and computers and all that. But I don't think that oral histories are necessarily worse in both content and process.

From my understanding, indigenous Australians and Polynesians had rich oral histories and cultures. Also oral culture may be more adaptable than a musty written document that never changes and must be followed. The human experience of living in an oral culture is naturally being lost, but it doesn't mean it was wrong or bad. I find it fascinating to imagine what life was like for them, how they did things differently.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#362

I've spent so many years playing and hearing about how Go will not be solved in our lifetime that the day AlphaGo won 4/5 games v Lee Sedol marked my personal timeline into what came before and after. I walked around all day in a daze watching people as they go about their daily lives as if nothing had happened. I've heard it said that man landing on the moon was like that for them, but I didn't understand as it was…

I’m glad I’m not the only one. I was totally floored, and I struggled to explain the significance to non-go players.

My respect for AI increased drastically that day, and (honestly) I developed a small amount of fear due to how AlphaGo’s style of play was not understood particularly well (e.g., some of the moves would absolutely be called “slack” if played by a human).

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

And yet Usain Bolt still runs. The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one). If people give up on learning or doing something every time some…

I appreciate the sentiment. If you look at sports records over time, everything gets continuously improves. Whether this is because of genetics or technology is up for debate, but I'm reminded of a funny (probably false) quote from an ex-Commissioner of US patent office: "everything that can be invented has been invented".

The point is we don't really know what limits exist beyond our small pinhole of perception. During industrialization I'm sure people said the same thing: "What's the point of hand-made clothing if machines can do it?". Today both hand-made and factory-made clothing have their place in the market.

Throughout history, tools have disrupted humanity and we've adjusted and expanded our horizons. To me this feels like another wave, and If I could bet and could collect winnings centuries in the future, I'd say this isn't even the last one.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garry Kasparov might be a bad example, since his immediate reaction to losing to DeepBlue was to accuse the IBM programmers standing on stage next to him of cheating (through human intervention in DeepBlue's moves). But generally, humans have accepted computer supremacy in chess pretty well. Everyone realizes that a better chess-playing entity exists out there (in everyone's pocket, in fact). That doesn't make the co…

Talking with a co-worker the other day, I unthinkingly articulated a question that made us both stop and think a bit: "Could a human beat a computer at chess?" Like, now. 20 years after Kasparov. Could someone do it? The question feels daring somehow.

> Kasparov versus the World was a game of chess played in 1999 over the Internet.[1] Conducting the white pieces, Garry Kasparov faced the rest of the world in consultation, with the World Team moves to be decided by plurality vote. Over 50,000 people from more than 75 countries participated in the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasparov_versus_the_World

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the performance vs understanding dialectic. A bunch of humans built a machine that is superior at chess, but that machine can't teach humans what it knows.

Chess computers teach by sparring rather than lecture. Humans still learn.

Alpha *, at least, also learns by sparring, so there is a nice symmetry there.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#366
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockfish on efficient hardware should handily beat humans even if capped to comparable runtime energy usage. I don't know if the same is true for alphago.

Perhaps also true, most of the energy was spent during training.

Well the energy spent creating you across the last billion years was also significant!

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#367

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

[deleted]

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Won't the winner be the one who just takes AlphaGo's recommended move every time without changing anything? That's only true if AlphaGo never makes a mistake or if AlphaGo will 100% always make the better or equal decision than a human + computer at any given state of the board. I know the former certainly isn't true and I assume the latter isn't true either, but I don't know enough about Go to say for sure.

Like self-driving cars, it's not enough to outsmart AI on one move, it's necessary to outsmart on AI with positive expected value over all the moves you are confident enough to weight in on.

AlphaGo (and, presuably, any AI system with a remotely simmilar means of operation) can output a score for each move. Actually, AG can output 2 scores: win percentage and branches explored.

You can use the relative scores to decide when to overrule the AI. Eg, if move A has a 50.1% win chance with 2k branches explored, and B has a 50.2% chance with 1.9k branches explored, I would go with the opinion of an expert human, as AG thinks the moves are essentially equal.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#369

Are we losing something as humans by automating so much? I mean I'm all for technical progress but at some point our computers will have killed so much of what makes us humans. Chess, go, driving, flying, math, written language, music... when does it stop? The standard answer is that we will automate all the dull parts of living and allow everybody to work in some sort of higher order capacity. That sounds great and…

Consuming is always going to be less sexy than creating.

Who would be more impressive, someone that can play a song on a guitar or or someone that can play a song over speakers? The former implies dedication and practice. The act of creation is always going to have a place in society, and people who think otherwise don't understand culture. The desire to make unique and interesting things or impress people will always leave room for creation or spending time to learn something. AI will just be a tool.

As for games like chess and go: Most people are interested in other people and will find much more pleasure in playing the game with others.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#370
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Usain Bolt still runs. The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one). If people give up on learning or doing something every time some…

I appreciate the sentiment. If you look at sports records over time, everything gets continuously improves. Whether this is because of genetics or technology is up for debate, but I'm reminded of a funny (probably false) quote from an ex-Commissioner of US patent office: "everything that can be invented has been invented". The point is we don't really know what limits exist beyond our small pinhole of perception. Dur…

> If you look at sports records over time, everything gets continuously improves.

Some track and field records set in the '80s still stand, e.g., Marita Koch's 400 m, Jürgen Schult's discus throw, Galina Chistyakova's long jump.

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