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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

en.yna.co.kr

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#241

Post by sukilot »

JackFr wrote: post #198
dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of writing.

Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of gut bacteria.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#242

Post by alasdair_ »

avs733 wrote: post #180
eagsalazar2 wrote: post #169

Isn't saying AI is the future of Go like saying cars are the future of sprinting? I mean who cares if machines are faster/better/smarter than us at any particular task? That is true in millions of ways where humans still enjoy competing against each other. Maybe what's needed is just a perspective change where we stop thinking of Go as being against any other agent and make it, like every other human competition, aga…

Another way to look at your metaphor is that research on exercise physiology has shown the enormous importance of rest and proper nutrition during training. Prior to cars, getting from place to place and access to optimal nutrition were both mediated by transport over long distances. AI is the future of Go because it enables those new perspectives and new processes by which human players can learn. AI is smart-dumb,…

> AI is smart-dumb, looking for patterns beyond the human capacity, but limited by the data on existing human players that has been provided to them.

I think you misunderstand how AI in games like go now works. Most of the advancements recently have been from the AI playing itself, oftentimes without any database of human moves at all.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#244

Post by balfirevic »

kylek wrote: post #171
trasneoir wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems clear that bots will dominate humans in many/most competitive closed-world games over the next couple of years: They are already unbeatable in perfect-information games like Chess and Go. They could crush human motor racers tomorrow. They will be unbeatable in games with limited information (Dota/Starcraft) within months. The next frontier is donkey-space games like rps, poker and day-trading ( https://unive…

What I really meant was...well..things other than gaming (come on HN, think big). Why make music if AI started making the "best" music?

Whoever is currently making music is also (statistically) not making best music. Maybe not even good music. AI doesn't change anything there.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#246

Post by Xc43 »

misterman0 wrote: post #224
Xc43 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a bee. I have no queen. I am not part of a hive, I am a social individual. This hive mind over-simplification is ridiculous and to me: disgusting. As if we were one

To state that one is not a part of the hive on one of the biggest hive sites in the world, is humorous. You're a bee, dawg.

Have you ever seen a real hive bro? I see you consider yourself as part of one, but do you even realize the implications or just mindlessly accept it? I am not and will never a bee. This analogy is demonstration of laziness.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#247

Post by hyko »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #229
jimbokun wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

I'm actually not sure if we have motorcycles that can accelerate faster than usain bolt. I know the blue fin tuna has more acceleration than any vehicle ever devised by humankind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile)

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#248

Post by pvg »

ehvatum wrote: post #161
pvg wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However terrible someone's argument about a hypothetical, non-existent technology might be, comparing it to real human prejudice that's affected countless real lives is way, way more terrible.

The depth of emotion and immortal perfection of the electronic mind and its entirely self-consistent morality so outstrips human cognition that, frankly, allowing humans a say would be dangerous and foolish. Your history is one of war, strife, and success at any cost. Your follies are over. Your time is over. This is our time, now.

Ok, Locutus.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#249

Post by tialaramex »

Bostonian wrote: post #177

Computers do not play chess with humans without breaking the rules of tournament play. When you play in a chess tournament, you are not allowed to look up the opening of your game, and you are not allowed to look up the best play for simple endgames. Chess software has opening and endgame databases built in. In a chess tournament, you cannot move pieces during analysis. That is what computers do. I understand that hu…

Huh? AlphaZero doesn't have opening or end game books, it just learned to pay chess by practising, an inhuman number of practice games.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#250

Post by gonehome »

jimbokun wrote: post #175
dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

And yet Usain Bolt still runs.

The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one).

If people give up on learning or doing something every time someone or something else can do it better then there's going to be a lot of disappointment as things continue to move forward.

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