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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#351

Post by dr_dshiv »

The whole idea of AI is a mess. Cybernetics makes more sense because it is about optimizing outcome data: which according to Norbert Weiner, is essentially lowering local entropy. [1]

If it is just about teleological outcomes, humans+ai always win. Go Cybernetics.

Smart Systems. Smart is as smart does, Forrest Gump style. Wellbeing, virtue, goodness -- that's the aim of intelligence.

[1] Weiner, Norbert (1950) The Human Use of Human Beings: Cybernetics and Society. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Use_of_Human_Being...

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#352

Post by Symmetry »

dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

There was about a decade after Deep Blue's victory in 1997 when human/computer teams were the champions of centaur (human+computer) chess. The computer's ability to simulate many moves ahead plus a human's intuition was a winning combination. But as computers got better eventually the communication overhead meant that human/computer teams started losing to computers playing on their own with the human only slowing things down.

It would be nice if we got a decade of centaur Go but I'm not sure we will. While Deep Blue had fairly crude heuristics for guessing which lanes of inquiry were promising AlphaGo's strength is its intuition-like neural networks that it combines with a rigorous tree search. It's worth investigating whether human/computer teams are superior at Go right now but I wouldn't count on the answer being "yes." And I especially I wouldn't count on a full 10 years of combined dominance.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#353

Post by sooheon »

dragontamer wrote: post #336
patcon wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw, I'm with you. Excuse the gratuitous war analogy, but I suspect the approach of OP is akin to talking about which first 8 steps to take (north-east, SW, S) when going into battle -- it's such a small scope of the whole event that it's pointless, and talking about those first steps makes one seem naive to the actual holistic task

For the near term future, LeelaZero is the best public engine at computer Go. This means if you enter a hypothetical "Cyborg" Go competition (computer-assistance allowed), the majority of newbies will simply be playing LeelaZero #1 plays over and over again. You don't need to build an exhaustive opening book covering all possible moves. You only need to pick say, the top 5 moves LeelaZero ever considers. If you spend…

Time to compile that static dictionary > time for alphazero to play a few million more games against itself to advance the metagame.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#354

Post by Symmetry »

p1necone wrote: post #280
pjscott wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Solved", in this case, means "computers can play the game at levels no human can beat."

That's not the normal meaning of solved in regards to game theory.

But it is what "solved" means in deep learning. Common terms very often acquire different technical meanings in different fields. Or even technical terms! Whether a single hydrogen atom is a "molecule" depends on whether you're talking to a physicist or a chemist. And "functor" means something very different in Java programming patterns than it does in math.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#355

Post by jacobwilliamroy »

hyko wrote: post #247
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually not sure if we have motorcycles that can accelerate faster than usain bolt. I know the blue fin tuna has more acceleration than any vehicle ever devised by humankind.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile)

Huh. I suppose that is more powerful than a bluefin tuna. Not as efficient though.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#356

Post by olalonde »

Barrin92 wrote: post #60

I think this is a strange reason to retire and as the article points out it might also simply be due to the legal conflict he is currently in with the KBA. Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess, because the human element of competition and struggle and deep fundamental appreciation for the…

> Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess

Is that true? I feel like chess was a bigger deal in the past. Among my peers, poker and computer games seem a lot more popular.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#357

Post by zitterbewegung »

dragontamer wrote: post #35

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

Cyborg chess is here.

As we have seen in the latest championship blitz chess is the future for chess.

Computers compete in their own championship.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#358

Post by correct_horse »

gonehome wrote: post #250
jimbokun wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

And yet Usain Bolt still runs. The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one). If people give up on learning or doing something every time some…

I think Usain Bolt no longer runs - he retired - but point taken.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#359

Post by sujNansnam »

neohaven wrote: post #265
Enginerrrd wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's like arguing "Since AIs will be able to comment on Hacker News, humans won't." I'm not so sure. I often go into threads on HN and realize that every idea I could come up with on the subject has already been expressed better than I could do it, with greater expertise, and cited sources. I don't comment in those threads. If AI bots could populate a thread with every likely human thought and argue it with depth an…

And yet, here I am, bringing up something no one seems to bring up in the thread. One would also logically come to the conclusions that disparate AIs with disparate interests would find different things to express, to make music about, to draw about. What distinguishes music written by AI from music made from humans? I have a story to tell. If the AI has a story to tell, one that speaks to our human emotions, it migh…

What your comment suggests to me is that good composition requires an agent with a world model and generalized task-solving ability, along with a personality. I think developing the world model and task-solving will be the hard part, and if we can do it, it won’t be that hard to make it have a personality too. That’s just another task.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#360

Post by Barrin92 »

olalonde wrote: post #356
Barrin92 wrote: post #60

I think this is a strange reason to retire and as the article points out it might also simply be due to the legal conflict he is currently in with the KBA. Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess, because the human element of competition and struggle and deep fundamental appreciation for the…

> Chess engines have been defeating humans for 20+ years (and are overwhelmingly stronger for a long time), but that hasn't diminished the interest in competitive chess Is that true? I feel like chess was a bigger deal in the past. Among my peers, poker and computer games seem a lot more popular.

I've been an active chess player myself for a long time and for the last 8-10 years not just with the advance of engines but also online streaming there has been a lot of renewed interest. Saint Louis has become a big chess hub in the US, China has become a major player, Anand has rekindled interest in India, Carlsen in Europe and I would say today it is more popular than it has been in a long time, in particular in Asia.

As to the direct influence of engines the other innovations aside, it has definitely forced players at the very top to re-evaluate the chess metagame, find weaknesses in traditional openings and shook up strategies. For the strongest players engine evaluation has become a useful tool providing new insights. When people watch chess tournaments these days on the internet most websites will provide parallel engine suggestions and commentators use engines to take hints for their commentary.

In my opinion, engines have made the game more competitive at the pro-level and more accessible for casual viewers.

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