Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players • Hacker News Board

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#341

Post by inimino » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #191

lern_too_spel wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, building an opening book does not take place at move decision time. Aside from that, there are several optimization techniques that you can apply to choose the hyperparameters appropriately, but once again, this has nothing to do with cyborg chess.

> this has nothing to do with cyborg chess. From my perspective, cyborg chess is about playing the best game of chess in all time... only stopping once we have discovered "the perfect game" (aka: proving that White-wins, Black-wins, or a Draw is always possible with perfect play) The computers currently playing Chess, and Go, are incredibly powerful. But they are far from perfect. People have constantly found weaknes…

Solving Go is an interesting theoretical pastime, but there is no reason to expect any particular overlap between people who are interested in playing the game (like Lee Sedol) and people who are interested in building machines to asymptotically approach a solution beyond human understanding.

Most of the resistance you're getting in this thread seems to be due to the fact that you think people who are interested in the game should also be interested in the other thing, and it just seems that a lot of them aren't (including Lee Sedol).

Playing Go challenges your mind with vast complexity and immediate feedback of winning or losing every game. It's a deeply engaging hobby for people who are susceptible to that kind of thing, and it used to be a meaningful career, with competitions, schools, and professional teachers. All of that changes now that software is vastly better at it than any human can ever be. The rush of competing by the strength of the moves you understand and make, by the unaided strength of your own mind, cannot be compared to picking between different engines to make moves for you based on some heuristics about which engine is better at openings. The era of human Go is simply over, for better or worse.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#342

Post by bredren » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

r3trohack3r wrote: post #174

short_sells_poo wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. I really like the way you put it. In isolation, humans today have essentially the same natural mental capacity we had 2000 years ago, but we've become part of a much bigger computer. A human brain 2000 years ago was a very isolated entity. Even in centers of learning in the classical era, the amount of knowledge one could tap into was v…

I've woven this sentiment into my philosophy. I feel computers (and the networks between them) are a natural evolution of our hive mind. When we first started taking spoken language and committing it to writing, we created a hive mind that extended beyond a generation. Prior to that point, everything was passed on through observation of other humans (observing behavior, observing speech, etc.). This meant everything…

“When we invented the personal computer, we created a new kind of bicycle…a new man-machine partnership…a new generation of entrepreneurs.” — Steve Jobs, c. 1980

https://medium.learningbyshipping.com/bicycle-121262546097

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#343

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:22 PM UTC

tcd wrote: post #268

blondie9x wrote: post #252

This is about human drive and what's the point if the computer will always be better. In a way it makes the game a bit less fun because it somewhat kills the elusiveness of it all and the human aspect of men trying to surpass each others feats. If a man cannot beat a machine at a task where they are to compete directly, what's the point of trying at all if the machine will always be better?

I mean, computers are vastly better than humans at many things, I think you need to accept that and find the fun in sharing a game with a computer involved or with another human whose playing with another human in a like-for-like match with witt and skill being determining factors in the result, not a super advanced AI/algorithm.

The point is that sharing a game with a computer involved is not really fun, unless artificial limitations are (re)introduced. Suppose you enjoy playing CyberGo, but then Jeff Bezos gets interested in the same hobby. You don't have $150 billion to throw at the problem so you will always lose to Jeff Bezos. The end.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#344

Post by hirundo » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

brudgers wrote: post #333

hirundo wrote: post #325

(alt version) And John Henry, steel driving man, felt that his heart was about to burst and saw that he would lose to the steam-powered rock drilling machine. So he said "fuck it, ain't worth it," dropped his hammer, and walked away.

John Henry was a steel driving man with mouths to feed not a celebrity...Polly Ann drove steel like a man.

Great reference: https://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/other.html

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#345

Post by excalibur » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

This man has become a canary in the coal mine for global human subjugation by Google AI.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#346

Post by OiNG » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

eyegor wrote: post #51

Am I the only one reading this article with the take away that the ai is not his primary reason for retirement? I understand that the title has its own conclusion but it seems overly sensational to me. > He actually quit the KBA in May 2016 and is now suing the association for the return of his membership fee. > "... [I] have something else to do," he said, asserting his only dream for now is to rest and spend time w…

From what ive been reading on online go communities, they seem to mostly agree with you.

Lee's issues with the KBA are not a secret and he has discussed possibly retiring for some time now. He has given multiple reasons as to why he was considering retiring and while ai might be one of them, saying that its _the_ reason feels very clickbaity.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#347

Post by CydeWeys » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #297

CydeWeys wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you're not as least as good at it you won't even be able to get to those positions. You'll lose to it much earlier in much worse ways.

The cyborg player will have access to the best publicly available software for preparation a year ahead of any competition. For most of us, that means we'll all have the best verison of LeelaZero to grab from Github and use in our own personal studies. Which should still be super-human in terms of play.

How is the human player adding anything to this partnership when the program is already so much better?

And don't forget that AlphaZero is gonna be getting better over that year too; you're trying to beat a moving target.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#348

Post by nestorD » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:27 PM UTC

karmakaze wrote: post #118

I've spent so many years playing and hearing about how Go will not be solved in our lifetime that the day AlphaGo won 4/5 games v Lee Sedol marked my personal timeline into what came before and after. I walked around all day in a daze watching people as they go about their daily lives as if nothing had happened. I've heard it said that man landing on the moon was like that for them, but I didn't understand as it was…

For me the two moments so far have been seing computeurs winning at Go and knowing that basic quantum computeur are out there (even if they are not useful yet).

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#349

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:31 PM UTC

Xc43 wrote: post #259

shkkmo wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The existence of a hive mind (or multiple) does not rule out the existence of individuality (not vise versa), it can be an emergent property of multitudinous individualistic interactions. The degree of influence varies depending on person and subject. We all tend to be conformist in some ways and iconoclastic in others. We may not be a hive mind, but we may have one.

Some realities cannot be reduced nor should they be reduced to analogies like "hive". Our social reality is irreductible being the most complex one known. Hive mind as an emergent property still implies a common thing for which one lives. Or a queen. A peer that is one's reason to live. The closest thing I can see to a hive mind is the army. We are all different and it is not because a person one talks with does not…

[deleted]

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#350

Post by amatecha » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

I mean, it's unfortunate that the news headlines are so narrowly focused on the AI players because he actually resigned from the national association in 2016..

> Lee didn't deny that his retirement decision was also influenced by a conflict with the KBA over the use of membership fees. He actually quit the KBA in May 2016 and is now suing the association for the return of his membership fee.