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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#321

Post by dragontamer »

ammon wrote: post #305
btilly wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking too much like a human. No, you're thinking too much like someone who understands chess but not Go. Suppose that we built an opening book with a trillion reasonable courses of action on it. Each one analyzed well. As you have discovered, you will only go a few ply into the game. And all of the positions that you will be directed towards will have only a small edge. Instead put a tiny fraction of the co…

I want to add that opening books are not THAT effective in computer chess either. Yes, they are significantly more effective than in computer go (because of the smaller branching factor and greater role of tactics). However, exponential increase in game tree size is crazy, even in chess. Thus, opening books really can't take you THAT far into a chess game (10 moves). An engine with a worse book but better search/eval…

The main purpose of opening books is to beat any player who is strictly relying upon Stockfish (or LeelaZero's) output to play the game. Because these engines play very deterministically, you can beat people who just play's Stockfish #1 (or LeelaZero #1) move over and over.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#322

Post by scottlegrand2 »

gonehome wrote: post #250
jimbokun wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

And yet Usain Bolt still runs. The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one). If people give up on learning or doing something every time some…

Usain Bolt chose his core competency wisely. Although it does imply hilarity would ensue from an all robot Olympics team (from the nation of 0 1 obviously), no?

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#323

Post by madrox »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #313

>"With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts," said Lee. >"Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated," he said in an interview with Yonhap News Agency in Seoul on Monday. Reading this just makes me sad, like the selfish kid who takes his ball home because he didn't win. I wonder why he thinks people…

I think you summed up toxicity in competitive environments. This applies really well to Overwatch, a competitive scene I know well. Losing really seems to be a huge driver of toxic behavior.

There's got to be study somewhere on how winning/losing affect toxic thinking on a chemical level. If there isn't one, there should be.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#324

Post by munmaek »

Xc43 wrote: post #246
misterman0 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To state that one is not a part of the hive on one of the biggest hive sites in the world, is humorous. You're a bee, dawg.

Have you ever seen a real hive bro? I see you consider yourself as part of one, but do you even realize the implications or just mindlessly accept it? I am not and will never a bee. This analogy is demonstration of laziness.

Everyone is a bee to an extent, unless they live as a hermit. We’re all part of a larger system and have certain things to do (work, pay taxes, and so on). With the advent of the internet, behavior will continue to grow more hive-like due to basically instantaneous communication. Is that so bad?

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#326

Post by brudgers »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #313

>"With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts," said Lee. >"Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated," he said in an interview with Yonhap News Agency in Seoul on Monday. Reading this just makes me sad, like the selfish kid who takes his ball home because he didn't win. I wonder why he thinks people…

This decision seems very adult. No one else’s game is ruined. After decades playing go, it’s time to move on. The player has changed. The game has changed.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#327

Post by ramblerman »

blondie9x wrote: post #252

This is about human drive and what's the point if the computer will always be better. In a way it makes the game a bit less fun because it somewhat kills the elusiveness of it all and the human aspect of men trying to surpass each others feats. If a man cannot beat a machine at a task where they are to compete directly, what's the point of trying at all if the machine will always be better?

> If a man cannot beat a machine, what's the point of trying at all if the machine will always be better?

A machine still has no will or purpose. The point will be to point the machine to interesting avenues and problems.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#328

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21
mourner wrote: post #6

> Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated Hard for me to empathize with this argument for his retirement. If we can't outrun a car, does that make running competitions pointless? The existence of AlphaGo doesn't diminish the triumph of being a number one human player in any way.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

We collectively may be #1, but only one out of the billions of use will be THE #1. But you see more than one doctor, more than one author, and more than one musician. In any matter of intellect, unless you're an blindly egotistical narcissist, you'll probably realize that there's at least one person on the planet unambiguously better at it than you are. When computers become better than the best of us, only that single person (and a large number of narcissists) stops thinking they're #1. For the rest of us, matters are unchanged (job market notwithstanding).

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#329

Post by bigred100 »

At the end of the day it’s just a game. It exists for recreational value. As I see it a pro exists largely because 1) people enjoy watching these games played at the highest level 2) people think they can learn in some way from these people. I don’t see how AI interferes with either of these.
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