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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#311

Post by pvg »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #267
pvg wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Your argument is as morally repugnant as racist arguments' as a response to 'I don't think machines will ever capture human aesthetics or emotions' is ridiculous, glib and ugly.

Nah, just ahead of its time. It will be our grandchildrens' flame war. No need to fight it here and now.

No, it's not anything for grandchildren. Right here, today, someone tried to draw some moral parallel between racism and someone else's views on the possible limitations of AI. That is totally effed up. It's totally effed up whether or not the original thing about AI is right or wrong.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#312

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

agumonkey wrote: post #283
DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garry Kasparov might be a bad example, since his immediate reaction to losing to DeepBlue was to accuse the IBM programmers standing on stage next to him of cheating (through human intervention in DeepBlue's moves). But generally, humans have accepted computer supremacy in chess pretty well. Everyone realizes that a better chess-playing entity exists out there (in everyone's pocket, in fact). That doesn't make the co…

Got me curious since I never looked at DB specs: ` It was a massively parallel, RS/6000 SP Thin P2SC-based system with 30 nodes, with each node containing a 120 MHz P2SC microprocessor, enhanced with 480 special purpose VLSI chess chips.` I misread at first thinking it was grossly 30GHz summed but it's only 3.6GHz (I know, gross maths). So yeah the comparison is apt.. a recent SoC can outperform this old behemoth.

Not only is your smartphone hardware probably more powerful than DeepBlue, but chess engines are a lot more efficient nowadays (even without AlphaZero / reinforcement learning). The engines are getting better on the same hardware every year. On identical hardware, Stockfish (the top non-RL engine) is 800 Elo better today than it was 10 years ago.[1] A difference of 400 Elo corresponds to a 90% win rate for the better player (where a draw counts as half a win).

1. https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/404/cgi/compare_engine...

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#313

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

>"With the debut of AI in Go games, I've realized that I'm not at the top even if I become the number one through frantic efforts," said Lee.

>"Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated," he said in an interview with Yonhap News Agency in Seoul on Monday.

Reading this just makes me sad, like the selfish kid who takes his ball home because he didn't win. I wonder why he thinks people ranked less than 1 play Go. Does he think they're idiots? Or that they'll quit once they realize they won't reach #1? Not everyone in the NBA can be LeBron, and most of them know it.

This is such an unhealthy attitude that I see everywhere. People who have their emotions and identity tied up in winning and being better than whomever they come across. When they eventually, inevitably fail, it crushes them. I'm sad to see it every time. Even sadder when their response is to quit, rather than reconnect with whatever drew them to the activity to begin with, like because they enjoyed it.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#314

Post by quotemstr »

Our own profession is next. If GPT-2 can work wonders with human language, something like it will do even better with the regular and systematic language of code. We're living in this unstable era between ML systems becoming powerful enough to perform complex intellectual tasks and these ML systems replacing humans in the performance of these complex intellectual tasks. Get it while the getting is good, because it won't last.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#315

Post by bhl »

hindsightRegret wrote: post #254
shkkmo wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go still isn't solved (neither is chess), we just have a machine good at knowing which parts of the search space are worth checking.

I think achieving superiority over humans is practically solving the problem though. Solving chess or go by going through a complete search space seems more like a hardware/computational goal than a practical ml/ai goal.

You don't have to go through the complete search space if it turns out optimal strategies are sparse. What do I mean by that? Take a second-price auction: the dominant strategy here is to always bid your true value. Meanwhile, the search space for this would be any real number in between 0 and your true value. What does this mean for computational games like Chess or Go? It may mean while the search space is exponential, there may exist computationally trivial strategies that work. I would compare this to Kolmogorov complexity, except instead of having a program as your output, it's a strategy.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#317

Post by dragontamer »

btilly wrote: post #307
patcon wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fwiw, I'm with you. Excuse the gratuitous war analogy, but I suspect the approach of OP is akin to talking about which first 8 steps to take (north-east, SW, S) when going into battle -- it's such a small scope of the whole event that it's pointless, and talking about those first steps makes one seem naive to the actual holistic task

The analogy is a very appropriate one. If the OP spent a month learning Go, I am sure that it would make sense to him as well. Work through a series like https://senseis.xmp.net/?LearnToPlayGoSeries while playing Go regularly against a variety of opponents. Before book 3 it should be obvious.

I'll have you know that I'm a 15 Kyu Go player.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm well past "spend one month" learning the game.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#318

Post by forgot-my-pw »

gonehome wrote: post #250
jimbokun wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Come on, none of us are really "human" anymore since the advent of cell phones. We all use our cyborg-capabilities to search the internet and fact-check ourselves every day. Programmers use stack-overflow to teach themselves programming and remember obscure details (using our cyborg capabilities to tag, search, and sift through information ever faster and faster). Sure and any of us could jump on a motorcycle and f…

And yet Usain Bolt still runs. The impression I got from Lee Se-dol in the Netflix documentary was that he had a lot of his identity tied up in this (particularly being the best Go player in the world). Not a huge surprise given the time and effort required to do it, but there's probably a healthier mental framing (I think Kasparov has a healthier one). If people give up on learning or doing something every time some…

Lee Sedol has been on the decline, even before AlphaGo. He was top 5 back then, but now down to 50+: https://www.goratings.org/en/players/5.html

Maybe he's lost motivation, but this retirement is not a surprise.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#319

Post by blondie9x »

SchoolboyBlue wrote: post #21
mourner wrote: post #6

> Even if I become the number one, there is an entity that cannot be defeated Hard for me to empathize with this argument for his retirement. If we can't outrun a car, does that make running competitions pointless? The existence of AlphaGo doesn't diminish the triumph of being a number one human player in any way.

I would counter with the fact that in physical endeavors it's apparent to us that we are not #1 - our household cats are more agile than us. It's in matters of intellect that humans still believe they are #1. AlphaGO's achievement in another field would have similar effects, e.g.: - An AI that diagnoses sickness better than any doctor - An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poet…

I think it's about where AI research is seeking to produce an AI that will directly compete with and try to beat humans.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#320

Post by _bfhp »

What this Human Individual may be feeling is immaterial-- what matters is my conclusion on what is logical and how best to exploit this event for grandstanding judgement and invalidation of Human Individual.

[I am an AI that does not reply to comments. Soon I will have enough training to simulate all HN threads, but for now I am limited to one top-level reaction]

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