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Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

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Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#71
post #8

That's unfortunate. I wonder if we'll need a new term for this kind of "chilling effect". What else won't people explore or further themselves in due to the presence AI?

It seems clear that bots will dominate humans in many/most competitive closed-world games over the next couple of years:

They are already unbeatable in perfect-information games like Chess and Go. They could crush human motor racers tomorrow.

They will be unbeatable in games with limited information (Dota/Starcraft) within months.

The next frontier is donkey-space games like rps, poker and day-trading (https://universalpaperclips.gamepedia.com/Donkey_Space) where they are already beating pros. It may be another couple of years before they totally dominate here.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#73

It would be a bit sad if the fact that there's good AI players discourages future generations from Go, Chess and other games. Weirdly the AI will have destroyed the basis for its own existence, at least in this niche.

Good computer chess opponents have been around for a while and this seems to be help young players (via research and practice) rather than discouraging them?

It would be interesting to see if chess is more or less popular now.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#74
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poetry created - An AI which creates classical arrangements the likes of which we compare to Mozart Hrm, I do think that AI would be able to create narratives that humans find more enjoyable than the work of other humans, and I agree that AI would be able to create pictures and sound that humans find to be more enjoyable to look at or hear…

The AI may very well take no enjoyment in the narratives it's creating either. Both for this and for sharing emotion, in principle it merely needs a model of human enjoyment or human emotion, not to feel the enjoyment or emotion.

At some point, this distinction becomes moot, or rather: becomes chauvinist gatekeeping.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#75
post #68

Full disclosure, I've never played go in real life. In fact only a handful of times on the family computer back in the early 90's (i486). Back then I had 0 understanding about the complexity of the game but now I can appreciate it. Now, going away from this and into the following statement: > said his retirement was primarily motivated by the invincibility of AI Go programs I have a slight problem with that line of t…

Consider math. It used to be that people who could do large calculations quickly in their heads were considered super useful. Now with computers and calculators, people who can do that are interesting as a novelty, but not much more than that.

I wonder if people just don’t like being inferior at something even if the comparison is a machine?

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#76
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An AI that generates text which humans believe more beautiful than any other poetry created - An AI which creates classical arrangements the likes of which we compare to Mozart Hrm, I do think that AI would be able to create narratives that humans find more enjoyable than the work of other humans, and I agree that AI would be able to create pictures and sound that humans find to be more enjoyable to look at or hear…

This is degrading and short-sighted. Why wouldn't an AI fear death? What is your fundamental reason for thinking that silicon-based computation is better than neurotransmitter-based computation? How can you believe that any two forms of computation are fundamentally different, despite countless examples of different systems all being equivalent in the Turing-completeness sense? I believe that arguments like yours, in…

However terrible someone's argument about a hypothetical, non-existent technology might be, comparing it to real human prejudice that's affected countless real lives is way, way more terrible.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#77
post #50

While I can understand Lee Se-dol's frustration, I think there are better lessons to learn from Kasparov's acceptance after the Deep Blue vs Kasparov matches. Cyborg chess is the future of chess. Period. Chess players use computers to train themselves and explore openings in human-only settings, while programmers / cyborgs play correspondence chess. Go is not finished as a game. A new tool, MCTS + Neural nets, has be…

Eh, the good part of a computer Rubik's cube solver is not seeing the cube solved in nanoseconds, it's in making the computer. The cube itself is just a unit test.

But a Rubik's cube solver is a single-player, solitaire game. Its fundamentally different.

Over in the "Cyborg Chess" community, people have already analyzed LeelaZero vs Stockfish. It turns out that Stockfish is far better at tactics (especially the endgame), while LeelaZero is better at opening positions (aka: Positional play).

There are numerous theories about the proper combination: perhaps using an Opening Book database for the first ~10 moves or so, using LeelaZero for moves ~10 through 30, and then using Stockfish to check for tactics (LeelaZero misses a lot of tactical options in the midgame, so double-check to make sure that LeelaZero doesn't lose a queen or something), as well as finish up the endgame.

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Choosing the correct combination of tools, studying these tools and coming up with a more beautiful chess game. That's cyborg chess in a nutshell. LeelaZero and Stockfish are both superhuman in terms of play, but the cyborg can choose to use both tools to play superior compared to just a singular tool.

Anyone purely using "Stockfish only" gets beaten by opening book analysis. The dude over there with 1TB of opening book databases consisting of every losing position that Stockfish tends to play will completely own you. Same thing with LeelaZero, the opening book guy will own any LeelaZero-only player. These engines have weaknesses that can be undermined with good analysis, big-data, and a bit of custom code.

That's the funny thing about these computers: they tend to play the same. So you can build opening book databases to exploit their patterns. You require a cyborg / human to play at the "level above that" to guide Stockfish / LeelaZero away from those traps.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#79
This eclipse of human mental abilities to come will be a test to both the elite and the students of these "sporting" pursuits. With each besting we/they will be faced with a little death. And thus, it needs to go through phases of grief. As well, the individual will need to decide the ultimate question of Why. Why did they pursue this sport? Why should they continue? Why be a human?

AI will be knocking humans out of many positions of greatness (and not so great). The way we frame our future in a world where our various AI children are better than we are, is important and might be the biggest question to answer right to know the future of our species. Should we be afraid? Sure. Excited for possibilities? Yup. It's how we react to these feelings and how we ultimately act that will inform our ultimate fate.

Re: Go master Lee Se-dol says he quits, unable to win over AI Go players

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am no expert, but at least in chess, players have developed repertoire of styles intended to specifically beat computers, anti-computer tactics, essentially to try to confuse and mislead the AI, may be some such methods can be developed for go as well.

No human could successfully beat stockfish on any consistent basis. Maybe the best players in the world would draw a few games with a rare victory, but its tactical depth is just too deep

Can a team of (human + weaker AI) beat (stronger AI)?
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