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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#41

Post by reaperducer »

dangus wrote: post #13

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Ju…

I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps?

Pretty much the same. Map is tailored to its audience.

Visit a mid-tier antiques shop in a large global city (New York, London, Vienna) and you may see some old maps with some interesting borders.

One of the walls in my home office has one of those big pull-down school maps of the Middle East. There isn't a date on it, but based on the borders it's probably about 80 years old. A number of... unconventional... names and borders on it.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#42

Post by anotheryou »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

Well if so it's still just the side-effect of not loosing out on selling their services in the target country.

Maybe you are right and it's the best way, I however also see how everyone is deeper in their own bubble with their own reality. Something that can easily cause a very skewed post-fact world view.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#43

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

eznoonze wrote: post #5

What a world we live in! Each country gets its own version of alternative reality.

That's not surprising given that borders are not in any way "reality". They are mutually agreed upon conventions that, well, not everyone agrees upon.

It should be no more surprising than having a British English dictionary and an American English dictionary, only with higher stakes.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#44

Post by reaperducer »

soperj wrote: post #22
ir77 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem is that even if i had a knee jerk reaction (i slightly did ;) ) and said 1)i should take a stance against apple 2) google is not an alternative -- what are my options? i can try to hack together some lineageOS device or something else, which will ruin the camera experience for me -- probably the most important feature of my smartphone for me. on top of that, i'll still have to rely on google for map /traf…

here maps. It's nokia. They're great. Not quite as good as google's offering, but better than apples.

How does it handle the Crimea question?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#45

Post by mzs »

naz wrote: post #38
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

No it adds ", Crimea, Russia" to the end of "Simferopol" in Weather.app but does not on the iPhone in US I just tried here.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#46

Post by anotheryou »

loceng wrote: post #39
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

It makes Google and Apple targets or any centralized information services for capture to then try to control the narrative globally.

If they chose just one "truth", wouldn't they be targeted even harder?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#47

Post by gnode »

nmeofthestate wrote: post #29
hollander wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be marked as disputed, from both sides, like "agreed to disagree". Think what would happen if the UK took back Hong Kong, or if Hong Kong declared itself independent. We - westerners - would all love that and accept it immediately. Would we have a problem then with Apple if they showed HK as a separate country?

"It should be marked as disputed" That's not how international law works. By all means maps may be tailored to suit the preferences of markets/countries, but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status. Currently the internationally-recognised borders between Ukraine/Russia are well-defined. > We - westerners - would all love [the UK invading and annexing Hong Kong] and accept it immedi…

Both Russia and Ukraine claim the territory of Crimea, and it is therefore disputed.

> but military conquest of a territory doesn't convert it to a "disputed" status.

Many territories are disputed without conflict. If military conquest, occupation and de facto control of a territory doesn't reify a dispute, then nothing does.

For examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#48

Post by anotheryou »

mzs wrote: post #45
naz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also exactly what Apple is doing in this situation > The region is now displayed as Russian territory on Apple Maps and Weather, when viewed from inside Russia.

No it adds ", Crimea, Russia" to the end of "Simferopol" in Weather.app but does not on the iPhone in US I just tried here.

for me in germany it just shows no country at all

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#49

Post by nickpeterson »

mzs wrote: post #37

Minister for Foreign Affairs of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/VPrystaiko/status/1199725757762850819 >IPhones are great products. Seriously, though, @Apple, please, please, stick to high-tech and entertainment. Global politics is not your strong side. #CrimeaIsUkraine

Russia has the power to take a portion of territory and they did. The means through which they did it is considered wrong, but it doesn't change the reality of who controls the area. Maps of political borders are maps of influence, not maps of ideals.

I'll also note that thoughts and prayers are not terribly useful in these situations. Force responds to force, nothing else. I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#50

Post by pashky »

jevgeni wrote: post #28
cpursley wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many Russian territories, they are in fact. You'll see multi lingual signs and that kind of stuff. I was in Komi Republic this time last year and many signs had both Komi (a Fino language) and Russian, despite a very insignificant number of living speakers.

That's not the argument tho, is it? I think Russian speakers in Ukraine were pretty comfortable themselves.

No, not in Crimea. True hate for all things Ukrainian was real there, especially in older folks. Many older generations never learned the language anyway and feeling of being heavily abused by politicians in Kyiv didn’t help the cause either.

This was very different from for example Baltic states.

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