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The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

551–560 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#551
post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the growth? The Federal Reserve pumping easy money into the economy doesn’t count. The author completely missed the point as to why capital is misallocated. True growth is when productivity increases, prices fall, and capital investment increases. It’s easy to sell 10 dollar bills for 8 dollars a piece. In what world is that considered growth?

When prices fall it is called deflation. The investment then decreases as well, because who in the sane mind would invest into something that is getting less valuable as time passes?

Far too many people apparently. New phones every year or more often. Apple products built with the intention to prevent their repair.

I was reflecting on the increasing gap recently between price and quality. If inflation were the cause of increased prices the expectation is that quality would stay the same. Quality is going down however.

Where is that difference going then? Shareholder pockets.

What is the value of hoarding all that cash? If the Fed didn't print more there would not be enough currency liquidity in the market.

This is what we see today. Deflation is staved off only through QE. It should be through incentives to spend, but there are too many incentives to hoard.

Re: The Real Class War

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"journalists in particular no longer find themselves in the upper middle class" For most of the history of journalism in the U.S., journalists were not in the "upper middle class". Journalism was a poorly paid working class job for most of the 20th century. Maybe a couple decades at the end of it different.

That low pay serves as a gatekeeping mechanism so poor people can't survive on that career. On the other hand, journalists have a disproportionate influence over public discourse, now tightly controlled by the elite class. Or maybe it's the reverse, because the field has high prestige and impact, it attracts upper class children who don't need the salary, causing a downward pressure for journalist wages.

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Re: The Real Class War

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proof follows from the labour theory of value (the proof of which is, I believe, more controversial, especially as Marx does the "proof"), which states that the magnitude of value of a commodity is objectively determined by labour-time, not by "risk", and I think that's shown in cases where many busniesses, no matter how risky (and it seems here you're only talking about the capitalist's risk, not that of the wag…

> The proof follows from the labour theory of value But I'm asking you about the proof of the labor theory of value in fact. I didn't thought that there exist people who take it seriously after marginal revolution. > and I think that's shown in cases where many busniesses, no matter how risky Business shows exactly the opposite, the most risky (volatile) domains have the highest gains and highest losses: pharma, cons…

>But I'm asking you about the proof of the labor theory of value in fact. I didn't thought that there exist people who take it seriously after marginal revolution.

The proof is "in the pudding" as it were; there are a few theorists (either heterodox economists or philosophers of economics) who argue that Marx himself did enough to "prove" the theory, either logical-deductively, or otherwise; see Elena Lange[0], Patrick Murray[1], Guido Starosta[2], Andrew Kliman[3], Chris Arthur[4] and a few others - though they approach the matter from different angles. Martha Campbell defends the objectivity of value in capitalist society as opposed to marginalist accounts and Veblen's "habitual action" account[5]. In general, those that hold to Marx's exposition with the "third thing" argument argue that the theory cannot apply to each commodity individually, though it would apply to an aliquot as taken as a sample of the lot of them.

>Business shows exactly the opposite, the most risky (volatile) domains have the highest gains and highest losses: pharma, construction, fintech.

These are not businesses, but fields of businesses, within them it is possible to find the greatest variation in risk. It is also not clear whether the risk is taken by the owner of the capital, or by the labourers themselves - in construction, a major risk falls on the safety of the workers. To say that they have the highest gains and the highest losses implies risk is a mere tautology (of course! that's what risk means, you win big or you lose big), but it says nothing about profitability.

>When you pay for a Intel x86 processor, you also pay for failed Intel iAPX 432 which never appeared in the market.

Again, offsetting the effects of failed developments and theft is what capitalists do with profit, it is not an explanation as to the origin of profit.

>Goods have value, labor has value as a good evaluated by an employer, but it does not "create value".

What you're saying is absolutely true, but it's an equivocation on "value". When you speak of the value to someone, from someone's perspective, that's not what Marx means by "value". Marginalist accounts of value are semi-compatible with the labour theory of value, so long as we're talking about different things when we say "value"; for example, it's clear that what the LTV means by "value" is not "artistic value" or "moral value" or any of a huge range of values. In the same way, it does not mean value as a subjective preference for one thing over another. That concept gets a look-in with the Marxist concept of use-value - but not exchange-value.

>If you make a chair, you apply labor, but if nobody values it and nobody buys it, it has no value, hence your labor has no value.

Only use-values count as values, because according to Marx, a commodity is a complex of a use-value and value (expressed in a given magnitude of exchange-value). Therefore it's meaningless to talk of something usunable and undesirable as having value. Even Ricardo knew this was the case. Wine is a more interesting matter; depending on how one looks at it, either the very act of storage is (objectively) highly valued, or the good is not entirely freely reproducible (i.e my wine aged for ten years will never sell as well as a brand name aged for five years), or along with Murray, the theory does not apply to this individual commodity, but if you were to take a sample of all capitalist commodities, you'd find that the identity of total value = total price holds in aggregate.

> They sell chairs for $1, which share of this $1 each of than created? How to measure that objectively?

There is no way to determine that; it is just as impossible as quantitatively determining "utility". Value is not sensible, it is a socially-determined supersensible aspect of commodities. In other words, the essence behind the appearance. See Murray on the neoclassical focus on capital's shadow forms[6]. In the same way, measuring skilled versus unskilled labour may not be possible quantitatively, but it clearly happens qualitatively - what the market rewards in wages on average to two groups of people with different skill sets means the abstraction and calculation is already quantitatively done for us in the real world. This is exactly the same with the neoclassical concept of utility, in which we can actually see prices, but not a drop of utility, no matter how we twist and turn an object.

[0] http://www.consecutio.org/2018/11/the-proof-is-in-the-puddin...

[1] https://philpapers.org/rec/PATIDO-2

[2] https://cicpint.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2008_Starosta...

[3] Kliman, A. 2008. The Fourth Thing on the Third Thing: A response to James Furner and Patrick Murray.

[4] Arthur, Christopher J Source: Capital & Class 15-39 no. 73 (Spring 2001): p. 15-39 https://libcom.org/library/value-labour-negativity-christoph...

[5] Campbell M. (2004) The Objectivity of Value versus the Idea of Habitual Action. In: Bellofiore R., Taylor N. (eds) The Constitution of Capital.

[6] http://crisiscritique.org/political11/Dennis%20Badeen%20and%...

Re: The Real Class War

#554

A cogent and well-written article. My only possible contributions are the following: 1. The author perhaps underestimates the bottom 90%, who are written off as politically irrelevant (in terms of real power) near the start of the article. I do think there's a good reason for this, but we are only one true crisis away from that changing. For example, suppose India and Pakistan only were to have a nuclear engagement a…

Only due to wider adoption and commoditization of the skill set. It well always be hard to find the best. Home builders once milled their own lumber until the industry commodified the process. Homes didn't get cheaper but the corporations that formed and the knowledge workers who designed them took more of the cost for themselves. The highest paid software folks will be those who simplify the process of making software so more less skilled and and difficult to train people can do it.

Re: The Real Class War

#555
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So for many, adjunct faculty are called "elites" while the Koch brothers are not. I think this is an important point. Wealth in the West knew to stay out of the radar. The whole concept of "old wealth" has the key characteristic of not spending frivolously in public or making a scene. Even in the Instagram age, they largely keep it under control. Their wealth - while beneficial - is not their defining characteristi…

Old wealth also spent lavishly, just on things more beneficial to the public. Imagine the costs with constructing an ornate art deco build today, vs. another 6 story wood frame box. At least with the pricey art deco building, the luxury is enjoyed by everyone who uses the space. Not to mention old wealth often donated huge fortunes to civic endeavors. There was good reason why the working class resentment of old weal…

That's exactly my point earlier. It actually costs relatively more today to get a similar sized building as that high quality art deco building of yesteryear, while the quality has simultaneously declined. Buildings like that aren't built of stone today, rather twigs by comparison.

Prices have gone up and quality down.

It's not just the wealth gap that is increasing but the value gap even more so.

Re: The Real Class War

#557

It makes sense that the top 10% to 2% become more active as blame and anger are re-routed toward them. For example, many people think the "elite" are the educated but not necessarily the wealthy. So for many, adjunct faculty are called "elites" while the Koch brothers are not. Likewise, discussions of wealth inequality are becoming conflated with income inequality. Yet the professional class has only marginal voting…

The professional class has contributed the most to the wealth gap. We blame the wealthy, but it's not they who are performing the task of wealth extraction. The banks owners don't sign mortgages or repossess homes. The shareholders aren't doing the actual labor that increases page views or patents doodads worth negative value to the poor who buy them and funnel the money up. Owners don't do the taxes that rob society of its own worth.

No. It's the professionals who do that immoral work. They are to blame. Not the wealthy. They just pay for it.

The professionals, most all of us here are the cause of the wealth gap. It is we who exacerbate the divide and decline of civilization by sacrificing our moral duty to those less fortunate to get a little more cash for ourselves.

Listen to us all here now. We know this, yet we continue.

Re: The Real Class War

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To +1 one this: Having spent a great deal of time consulting to government, in addition to working in media, but with a deep background in tech, the managerial class of people making policy have a revolving door to the universities, which are seized by faddish ideas as often as the elected representatives. Many of these policy people actually come to hate technologists because they find their more chauvinistic plans…

I wonder how this would relate to the Peter principle which states that every employee rises to their level of incompetence. The conclusion might be that the managerial class is not qualified to decide on what's good for others. If you were to look at the individual histories of most senior corporate executives, most of them were in various middle management positions at some point before they became executives... Th…

There is a capability for abstraction we overlook.

Forget for a moment about what we might think about people who succeed in business, and look critically at the ones who fail. People who fail in business are the ones who want friends, honour, fame, validation, sympathy, justice, social good, and esteem. They personalize failures against these needs and stop dealing with the higher level abstraction of the success of the venture. The ones who succeed want something else, either because they already have or self-fulfill those other things, or just don't care. We can moralize and say it's the latter, but it's more often the former.

It's easier when an institution has given you the conceit that you are not morally accountable to the uninitiated or uneducated. The thing about class is that barring crime, there is no downside to betraying someone who isn't a part of your tribe, which is usually from a school. If you believe people get what they deserve, they call that the "just world fallacy," for a reason. It's a noble lie. If it weren't, you'd see more nurses and veterans in business class seats.

Anyway, long topic, but in spite of my opinions, I think it is difficult to accurately criticize management and class without the perspective of an elite education, as (perhaps horrifically) what can instruments know of their players?

Re: The Real Class War

#559

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

What are some good theories on how to break up these over-empowered groups?

Re: The Real Class War

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common to Christian, especially Protestant, theology and culture. "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." And that principle is the often (most?) quoted part of the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evid…

That's equality in eyes of the law - not the equality of the outcome, which leftist movements try to preach.

It's not clear to me that Orwell was saying that. And neither of the passages I vite are talking about laws as such. The Declaration of Independence was certainly extralegal, and perhaps it is more foundational than any given body of law, even.
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