Live data from Hacker News

The Real Class War

americanaffairsjournal.org

151–160 of 634 posts

Re: The Real Class War

#151
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The big ideological divide in families (usually between generations) is a serious symptom of our inability to really communicate and compromise. In large part these ideological groupings are meaningless and inconsequential." I think this is only true in very specific circumstances. Ideological divide can also mean disowning your child for being gay, which is why among homeless youth there's a disproportionate amount…

Excuse my wording, I probably should have said that exactly this "putting ideology before family and friends" leads to this divide and vicious cycle.

In that I 100% agree.

Re: The Real Class War

#152
A cogent and well-written article.

My only possible contributions are the following:

1. The author perhaps underestimates the bottom 90%, who are written off as politically irrelevant (in terms of real power) near the start of the article.

I do think there's a good reason for this, but we are only one true crisis away from that changing. For example, suppose India and Pakistan only were to have a nuclear engagement and the outcome was a small global "winter" for a few years from the dust and rubble kicked into the atmosphere. When crops and supply chains fail and famine kicks in, who is going hungry?

That's about the point that true populist revolts happen.

2. The author discusses at length the phenomenon of "the 10%" elites who align themselves (in ideology) with the working class, perhaps blinded by not realizing that they are actually trying to support their own interests.

But I think some underestimate how soon the developers and programmers of the world will crater from "elite 10%/5%/1%" to something resembling median salary.

This is my own opinion, but it's clear to me that the tech industry (and it's associated venture capital scene) are in a state of irrational exuberance as the capitalist class is convinced that tech startups (or the word "tech" attached to non-tech startups) offers incredibly high ROI.

This paradigm will end as easy opportunities and low hanging fruit dry. Maybe we're already there, but nobody has acknowledged it yet. When this happens (and is widely recognized), venture capital will flee to safer vehicles. Meanwhile, the big tech of the world will consolidate and cut costs to grow shareholder value.

When this happens, we will all stop hopping jobs for 30% pay raises and instead we will start hopping jobs (post-layoff) for 30% pay cuts. And this will continue for decades.

Re: The Real Class War

#153
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt but that’s amateurish compared to how we got screwed by people who said they were fighting FOR US . On the other hand he deregulated airlines and telephony which jump started the tech revolution.

I don’t see how it’s any different, let alone “amateurish”. Clinton cleared the way for the internet to create as much wealth as it has (Telecommunications Act of 1996). Every President has had positive policies and negative policies, so we could play that game all day. Acting like deregulating airlines and busting unions are on the same level is curious. One has created some new companies (and many corporate bankrup…

Income stagnation is directly correlated to outsourcing and globalization. Union busting’s contribution to stagnation is sort of a side show. That’s to say strong unions cannot stop jobs from being sent overseas.

What good does it do you to have a union without members because all work has been sent overseas? None!

That’s Clinton and his MFN and fastracking into WTO. That’s who we have to thank as well as everyone who didn’t dare challenge that world view but rather cheerled it, including the Bushes and Obama.

Re: The Real Class War

#154
post #116
post #105

This is all driven by globalisation, and don't get me wrong I'm a globalist, but this is just a fact. First manual labour in manufacturing was outsourced abroad, then higher tier tech jobs in software and product engineering. Now big firms from former third world countries are muscling in on markets at every level of the economy, creating competition at every level of business. You can't add hundreds of millions of C…

One big problem is GHW, Clinton, GW and Obama said we’d be able to sell into their market and we’d come up on top. That the middle class would see more and better jobs as a consequence (we’d graduate from arduous manual labor into more value add). That’s been nonsense. Perot was prescient and he was right. But we laughed him off the stage. Instead, big biz, some bankers some dealmakers, politicians and other value ad…

I don't think I'd have GHW on that list - Clinton, sure, but during GHW's presidency we had pretty strict sanctions on China and investment in China was mostly curtailed.

Re: The Real Class War

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't their views as legit as yours or mine? Could it not be argued that the legitimacy of views depends on how much information the person has access to? The average working-class person, due to lack of free time and interest may be unable to acquire more information than is conveniently delivered to them through a handful of sources, and if those sources are controlled by certain actors and not balanced by o…

> The average working-class person, due to lack of free time and interest The average American watches three hours of TV a day. People have plenty of free time. If they’re not interested their political opinions are irrelevant, politics will happen to them, not with them.

Yet they still get a vote. And if they vote for something you don't understand, then it just proves that watching the news helps you know what journalists think - not the public.

Re: The Real Class War

#156

It makes sense that the top 10% to 2% become more active as blame and anger are re-routed toward them. For example, many people think the "elite" are the educated but not necessarily the wealthy. So for many, adjunct faculty are called "elites" while the Koch brothers are not. Likewise, discussions of wealth inequality are becoming conflated with income inequality. Yet the professional class has only marginal voting…

> Yet the professional class has only marginal voting power and comparatively little to contribute to political funding, so it's not surprising that the astute ones are concerned. Likelihood of voting is highly correlated with education. I wouldn’t be surprised if the top ten percent are three or four times more likely to vote than the bottom decile. Money is also far less important in politics than many think. If mo…

> If money won elections Michael Bloomberg would have been president long ago,

Mike Bloomberg has won every election he's run in, which is exactly 3 elections. Not the best example.

Re: The Real Class War

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pie may have grown, but aside from labor in the Global South, the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class). And no, getting some of your compensation in stock options doesn't make you apart of the capital class, unless you can stop working.

> the people who have captured the gains from that growth have been the capital class in the developed nations (i.e not blue collar workers or the professional class) Wrong. Middle-class Americans have captured gains through cheaper, higher-quality products than would have otherwise existed without trade and development. Are you using a phone made in China, or wearing clothes made in Bangladesh, or eat fresh fruit in…

Maybe so, but nobody's happy about cheap lawn furniture, for example, when they can't afford homes, healthcare, or education.

Re: The Real Class War

#158
post #12
post #5

I disagree that the working class is not going to radicalize itself. They too are out here on the internet, talking to each other and culturally evolving at an unprecedented rate, like everyone else. For the first time they have the power to publish and think in public uncoupled from professional barrier. Better believe it’s being used, and that they will assert their awareness.

The election of Donald Trump could be seen as the result of the radicalisation of the working class.

It's not the working class, it's exclusively the white working class.

Re: The Real Class War

#159
I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me.

> At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies.

> Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­quired for, wielding political power.

I've never seen actual grassroots activism accomplish much, if anything. Protests in DC are like rain; bring an umbrella, but no need to pay it much attention because it will blow over in no time. It's always insiders who make a career out of policy that ultimately shape it. Hill staff, think tank wonks, professional bureaucrats, etc--it's that professional Washingtonian class that really shapes the government's policy, because they are the ones that show up to do that work every day.

Re: The Real Class War

#160

I've spent my career working in public policy circles, and this rings true to me. > At most, working-class voters can cast their ballots for an “un­acceptable” candidate, but they can exercise no influence on policy formation or agency personnel, much less on governance areas that have been transferred to technocratic bodies. > Unlike the work­ing class, the professional managerial class is still capable of, and re­q…

> because they are the ones that show up to do that work every day

Because someone is motivated enough to pay them every day to do that work

Post reply on HN