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Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

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Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#61

Post by Ensorceled »

k_sze wrote: post #45
Ensorceled wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If not for global markets, my fresh fruit and vegetable selection would be VERY limited. As a kid, I had mostly root vegetables and apples from October until spring.

I have always wondered if we , as a species, are the problem. Maybe we’re really not supposed to spread and colonize every part of Earth. Maybe we’re supposed to stay within much narrower areas where the local produce is good enough. Not sure if I’m making sense.

That's a very religious point of view. We are the problem, but only in that we're THE apex predator and we can't seem to figure out a way to control our worst consumption impulses.

One thing that struck me about a childhood visit to "St. Marie amongst the Hurons"[1] was that the Hurons would "use up" a place and simply abandon their longhouses and maize fields and move to a place with better hunting. Sometimes they would return a few years later to that same place after the prey populations had a chance to recover.

The echos of this world view is what freaks me out about people like Musk saying we need to get off Earth.

[1] http://www.saintemarieamongthehurons.on.ca/sm/en/Home/index....

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#62

Post by Ensorceled »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #48
Ensorceled wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see New Zealand lamb, frozen, in my Toronto supermarkets all the time ... they don't need to be alive.

and I see Argentinian meat sold fresh in Italy, plural of anectodes is still not data

That's not how that logical fallacy works and is also the Fallacy Fallacy[1]. An anecdote is absolutely proof that something is possible, just not that it's common or even statistically likely. Also, showing that something is an anecdote does not automatically invalidate the claim.

However, frozen meat exports from New Zealand alone is BILLIONS of dollars a year so I have no idea what point you are even making.

[1] https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#63

Post by bobongo »

pvaldes wrote: post #60
henryaj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I suggest we should transport live animals thousands of miles by making them walk the whole way?

Ok. Honest question. What do you suggest then? Teleportation? The "but its cruelty against animals so lets kill them instead!" card is a random and really worn out argument nowadays. We have enough of real problems yet.

> Honest question. ... Teleportation?

Your suggestion gives your question the appearance of a not-so-honest question.

> What do you suggest then?

The answer would depend on your convictions. It could be one or a combination of, for example,

- Tight national and international regulations (with teeth) to ensure animal safety and well-being, comparable to the transport of humans,

- Local-only growth,

- Alternative protein start-ups,

- Etc.

> but its cruelty against animals so lets kill them instead!

I could not find any instances where the OP suggested this.

edit: Found someone else who mentioned that, which doesn't make sense to me either - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21637661

On the other hand,

> but its cruelty against animals

Then you would want to stop it in one way or another, no? What would be your suggestions?

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#64

Post by LoSboccacc »

Ensorceled wrote: post #62
LoSboccacc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and I see Argentinian meat sold fresh in Italy, plural of anectodes is still not data

That's not how that logical fallacy works and is also the Fallacy Fallacy[1]. An anecdote is absolutely proof that something is possible, just not that it's common or even statistically likely. Also, showing that something is an anecdote does not automatically invalidate the claim. However, frozen meat exports from New Zealand alone is BILLIONS of dollars a year so I have no idea what point you are even making. [1] h…

you brought up frozen food, I was just stating the obvious, if they want fresh meat they have to import livestock.

but according to this community that's highly illogical, so go figure.

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#65

Post by LoSboccacc »

soonoutoftime wrote: post #54
adrianN wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe we shouldn't optimize just for cost effectiveness if sentient beings are involved?

Yeah. The tl;dr here is really that some countries just don't care about animal welfare that much, or at all.

why is everyone so hellbent of depriving people from the taste of fresh meat? setting aside the specific requirement for processed food in these countries, why would you only want them to be served frozen products, if they can afford to foot the shipping costs? animal welfare is tangential and mostly impact on costs. I'm talking about availability, which people seem very keen of just removing because of perceived (and unsubstantiated) issues with livestock shipment.

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#67

Post by Ensorceled »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #64
Ensorceled wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how that logical fallacy works and is also the Fallacy Fallacy[1]. An anecdote is absolutely proof that something is possible, just not that it's common or even statistically likely. Also, showing that something is an anecdote does not automatically invalidate the claim. However, frozen meat exports from New Zealand alone is BILLIONS of dollars a year so I have no idea what point you are even making. [1] h…

you brought up frozen food, I was just stating the obvious, if they want fresh meat they have to import livestock. but according to this community that's highly illogical, so go figure.

You are clearly highly emotional about this issue. I'm going to step out now.

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#68

Post by dang »

Ensorceled wrote: post #67
LoSboccacc wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you brought up frozen food, I was just stating the obvious, if they want fresh meat they have to import livestock. but according to this community that's highly illogical, so go figure.

You are clearly highly emotional about this issue. I'm going to step out now.

You started crossing into personal attack already upthread, and here went over to the dark side. Can you please not do that, regardless of how emotional another commenter is or you feel they are? It degrades discussion and of course is against the site guidelines.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#69

Post by Aeolun »

soonoutoftime wrote: post #49
Aeolun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re shipping humans live. It’s not as if we subject sheep to something we aren’t willing to undertake ourselves.

What are you talking about exactly? Are thousands of humans dying of heat stress due to spending weeks at sea in literally unbearable conditions? It's horrific.

I'm talking about shipping sheep/animals by sea. The conditions of said shipping can sure use some improvement, but banning it altogether seems like an overreaction.

Re: Rescuers race to save 14k sheep on capsized cargo ship

#70

Post by Ensorceled »

dang wrote: post #68
Ensorceled wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are clearly highly emotional about this issue. I'm going to step out now.

You started crossing into personal attack already upthread, and here went over to the dark side. Can you please not do that, regardless of how emotional another commenter is or you feel they are? It degrades discussion and of course is against the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Message received.
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