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Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

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Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#61

Post by trasneoir »

cylinder wrote: post #37
Magi604 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over-the-top safety requirements are spot on I think. Here in BC Worksafe BC just constantly adds on new rules and regulations every year, and they don't care about your company's budget or productivity. I know Worksafe programs are similar from province to province, so I would be curious to see a comparison of Canadian Worksafe safety standards to safety standards from around the world to see just how much more (or…

Well if we can't afford to build things without killing people, we shouldn't be building things. Construction safety rules act as a check on liberal capitalism's growth obsession.

We can afford to manage risk, but not eliminate it. If we allow safety to rule us completely, we invite regulatory capture and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag_traffic_laws

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#62

Post by kareemm »

cperciva wrote: post #52
jacobush wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced this is a bad thing, given only the information in your comment.

You're not convinced that it's bad for the government to deliberately overpay for projects in order to funnel money into the pockets of its political donors?

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterization. Is it clear they’re overpaying?

I’m not pro-union but unions aren’t the devil.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#63

Post by danilocesar »

gpderetta wrote: post #56
yegle wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unrelated: as a non-native English speaker with CS background it's the first time I learned the original meaning of "semaphore". Took me some time to find https://www.uvm.edu/landscape/dating/road_signs_and_traffic_... to explain what is a semaphore (the search results were heavily biased to the word's use in computer science).

For what is worth, in Italy traffic lights are still called 'Semaforo'.

Same in Brazilian portuguese (depending on where you live, we have at least 5 words for the same thing: Sinal, Farol, Semáforo, Sinaleira, Sinaleiro)

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#64

Post by Symmetry »

totony wrote: post #19
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

Agreed with the corruption and over-legislation, which in my experience coincide. Bidding on governement projects in QC is very painful to do and corruption is sky high so competition cant set in EDIT to add: example of QC bidding: most companies underbid the construction work to later postpone the deadline and request more money than originally bargained, and there doesnt seem to be any (enforced) legislation to con…

Extremely strict regulations can function as an asshole filter[1] where only people who intend to bypass the rules somehow get involved in bidding.

[1]https://siderea.livejournal.com/1230660.html

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#65

Post by fiblye »

kareemm wrote: post #62
cperciva wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not convinced that it's bad for the government to deliberately overpay for projects in order to funnel money into the pockets of its political donors?

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterization. Is it clear they’re overpaying? I’m not pro-union but unions aren’t the devil.

Assuming that comment isn't misrepresenting the issue (I know nothing about Canada and can't say), I think the main focus isn't the unions, but that only organizations that contribute to fattening politicians wallets can build anything. Those organizations just happen to be unions.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#66

Post by CryptoPunk »

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

>>over-the-top safety requirements

This is due to the safety at all costs fallacy that dominates popular politics.

--

One other factor is capture by unions, although that could fall under corruption. It's a high level form of corruption involving swaying public opinion to accept union narratives about the good done by their control of labor forces.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#67

Post by gerbilly »

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt.

Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#68

Post by MisterTea »

charrondev wrote: post #23
sysbin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be indeed true. Some say the construction is the fault of the city being old but I’ve seen the same street being worked on throughout the summer for two consecutive years. There is construction everywhere as well compared to other cities I’ve visited.

Montrealer here. Constant construction of everything is the norm. The roadways are a nightmare of poor construction and tons of detours. The thing that bugs me the most is that they can’t seem to get the hang of painting lines properly on the roads. Lines painted last 2 months at most, then are gone. I was driving this weekend on 3-4 land highways, that curve around corners and have no lines painted. Luckily our publ…

In New York City we have four seasons: almost winter, winter, still winter, and construction. Supposedly we're in autumn but the reality is it's the tail end of construction. We'll have a few months of crummy weather and then back to beautiful sunny construction.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#69

Post by KptMarchewa »

chopin wrote: post #50
cperciva wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- corruption, especially in QC If you think corruption is bad in Quebec, look at BC. One of the first things our current government did was to pass a law requiring that all government-funded construction must be performed by workers belonging to unions which donated to the governing party's last election campaign. A short time later, they changed the procurement rules from "lowest cost bid" to "best bid", with the ru…

Taking lowest cost bid isn't always optimal. In Germany it is required to take the lowest cost bid which leads to all kinds of failed projects as the winning bid can't hold its bid. As well, life-time of things built this way have become awfully short.

It's not "lowest cost bid" but "lowest cost bid that meets all the requirements". The point is that requirements have to be well specified.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#70

Post by bluGill »

sunstone wrote: post #55
chopin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking lowest cost bid isn't always optimal. In Germany it is required to take the lowest cost bid which leads to all kinds of failed projects as the winning bid can't hold its bid. As well, life-time of things built this way have become awfully short.

Imagine if you were forced to buy all your stuff from the dollar store. Pretty obviously the results would be hit and miss, mostly miss.

Imagine a twist on this: you have to buy from the dollar store, but they dollar store has agreed on a level of quality. They may have a separate back room with only the things you are allowed to buy because that is where items that meet your quality standard are. (They may or may not allow others into that room)

The reality is for big projects quality should always be part of the contract. Use substandard quality materials and the whole contract is void.

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