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Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#141

Post by andbberger »

reaperducer wrote: post #60
the_duke wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to stop expecting moral behavior from publicly listed companies. They will naturally trend towards short to medium term profit maximization within the given legal constraints. The boundaries for corporate behaviour have to be established by elected governments. In the case of China that could mean customs duties, sanctions and stricter regulations for moving part of your supply chain there.

This is a false dilemma. There are plenty of publicly listed companies that also engage in moral behaviors. Pretending it's an either/or situation only serves to excuse the behavior and derail the discussion.

Care to share some hard evidence to support that? Privately held companies certainly have some more freedom in their actions, but public corpos are a slave to the shareholder.

Public corpos only incentive is to create value for their shareholders.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#142

Post by ardy42 »

acdha wrote: post #70
bluejekyll wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize this might be wrong and based on not reading enough history about it, but I’ve always understood that the Holocaust was not well documented until after the war. Obviously many people fleeing Germany and the occupied countries during that period, knew something bad was happening, but overall, it’s my understanding that before and during the war, the rest of the world really wasn’t aware, or at least not awar…

It was more complicated than that: the Polish government in exile knew at least as early as 1940 and by at least 1942 those had been corroborated by allies and there were official reports presented to allied governments, the UN, and covered in major newspapers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mass_Extermination_of_Jews... https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1942/02/13/852... The catch, of course, is that…

> It was more complicated than that: the Polish government in exile knew at least as early as 1940 and by at least 1942 those had been corroborated by allies and there were official reports presented to allied governments, the UN, and covered in major newspapers:

I had no idea that the "United Nations" was a thing during WWII (though it appears to be more of a synonym for the allies than the body we're familiar with today).

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#145

Post by woodandsteel »

ratww wrote: post #28
_Microft wrote: post #5

The documents reveal how every aspect of a detainee's life is monitored and controlled: "The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed. "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating…

> The students should have a fixed bed position, fixed queue position, fixed classroom seat, and fixed station during skills work, and it is strictly forbidden for this to be changed My school was like that when I was growing up. I'm not justifying what China is doing, and I didn't like it myself. But I find it weird to find it quoted here like that.

But the purpose of your school was education in standard subjects, not ideological transformation. Your teachers did not assume the students were all followers of a dangerous radical ideology.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#146

Post by blotter_paper »

the_duke wrote: post #43
devhwrng wrote: post #2

Maybe Tim Cook will show some "courage" now. [Edit] Sorry for the snark. In a market economy, the only way companies like Apple might act in the same way that compassionate human beings would, is if it were in the interests of their bottom line. Perhaps articles like this will hit critical mass, and Apple will put out a statement, carefully composed to ensure that China doesn't lose face. Perhaps they'll do something…

We have to stop expecting moral behavior from publicly listed companies. They will naturally trend towards short to medium term profit maximization within the given legal constraints. The boundaries for corporate behaviour have to be established by elected governments. In the case of China that could mean customs duties, sanctions and stricter regulations for moving part of your supply chain there.

Your elected government is illegally recording my calls, unless you believe the post-Snowden claim that they stopped (and there isn't any reason to). Why should I expect ethical behavior from this entity? I'd rather choose which software I route my data through than have the government "regulate" all of my options to include Clipper chips. I don't want the government to have any say about what I do with my data.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#147

Post by blotter_paper »

weberc2 wrote: post #38
99chrisbard wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to do when it seems that China is now the world's factory...

I wonder if there are any organizations that can certify products and brands. From inhumane conditions to poor quality to scammy marketing and outright fraud (especially on Amazon), I want to avoid Chinese products as much as possible. It’s difficult to avoid completely, but there’s certainly a lot of low hanging fruit.

In fact, any organization can do this. In the vegan/vegetarian/organic/non-GMO food space there are multiple competing certification programs. The LSD Avengers used to fulfill this role on the old Silk Road. It seems there is at least one NGO that specifically certifies goods as made in the USA, though I have no idea how legit they are: https://madeinusacertified.wordpress.com/

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#148

Post by blotter_paper »

simonblack wrote: post #136

I always get skeptical about stories that suddenly show up on scores of MSM websites, rather than the slower spread over a day or two or three that usually happens with 'real' news. I've been fooled too many times by stories about 'weapons of mass destruction', 'gas attacks', 'Trump's pee tapes', 'Tonkin Gulf incidents', etc, etc that I withhold judgement for some time till the bulk of the back-story arrives.

> Tonkin Gulf incidents

Why did you include such a well documented false flag in your list of potentially fake news? [Edit: the document discussed in the following quote is from the NSA itself, so the government has admitted (39 years later) that this was a hoax.] From the NYT:

> The most provocative document is a 2001 article in which an agency historian argued that the agency's intelligence officers "deliberately skewed" the evidence passed on to policy makers and the public to falsely suggest that North Vietnamese ships had attacked American destroyers on Aug. 4, 1964.

> Based on the assertion that such an attack had occurred, President Lyndon B. Johnson ordered airstrikes on North Vietnam and Congress passed a broad resolution authorizing military action.

> The historian, Robert J. Hanyok, wrote the article in an internal publication and it was classified top secret despite the fact that it dealt with events in 1964. Word of Mr. Hanyok's findings leaked to historians outside the agency, who requested the article under the Freedom of Information Act in 2003.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081211090233/http://www.nytime...

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#149

Post by Spooky23 »

rayiner wrote: post #137
Spooky23 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not forced equivalency. Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. I’m not sure why this would make me cool at parties, but I would like for my government to be able to take a stand against this type of conduct.

You’re drawing a false equivalence both between the people detained and the condition of their detention. > Any modern society should be able to say that concentration camps are bad, or that rounding up or punishing children, families people in the basis of race, familial connections, etc is an affront to human dignity that should be condemned. Of course. And modern nations should condemn China on that basis. But wha…

Many of these families are people seeking asylum status in the United States. Detaining then like criminals and treating them like animals — there are documented cases of infants without identification being cared for by unrelated minors is grotesque.

That treatment is against the law, as is many aspects of how others apprehended crossing the border illegally are.

If some regulation of asylum process justifies the dishonorable conduct of our government to you, I’m sorry for you. Our humanity is worth more than some bullshit political dogma.

Re: Data leak reveals how China 'brainwashes' Uighurs in prison camps

#150

Post by skinnymuch »

ioror93jf wrote: post #61
reaperducer wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you chose to only select a portion of the text. The second sentence is useful, too: "Implement behavioural norms and discipline requirements for getting up, roll call, washing, going to the toilet, organising and housekeeping, eating, studying, sleeping, closing the door and so forth" My school was like that when I was growing up. Your school proscribed when you go to the toilet and how to close a door?

Mine did, yes. Grew up in rural Midwest US in the 80s. We walked in lines on a schedule for bio breaks. We had to “shut a door respectfully” basically library rules for the sake of others. Our school had 25-30 kids per class. How else does one manage that? If you really needed to go you could and this article does not say that’s explicitly disallowed. I think you’re losing the forest for a tree here. The problem is t…

Don’t a lot of schools have classes that big? There was no standing in line for the bathroom as some regular thing. I know it’s not just my memory lying to me. I have a tape where my whole day was recorded. I watch it every once in a while. There’s no standing in line for the bathroom as a class.
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