Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the whole voting thing is stupid. It obviously leads to censorship. Someone else's opinion should not count less than others even if you don't agree with them. Assuming we're not talking about plain spam (bots, ads, etc). Graham did not think this through properly. Everyday I come across comments that are downvoted or flagged and can see no reason why that was done apart from subjective ones.
Of course, there's a lot of subjectivity. But if you think you can make a site like HN be interesting without voting, you should give it a try. It would be an order of magnitude easier and cheaper to operate, and that would be a real innovation.
China
481–490 of 497 posts
Re: China
#482Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The majority of American News can be traced back to 6 billionaires 6 is more than one. A majority is not a totality. And not all Western media is American.
In 20 years it will probably be 3
Re: China
#483Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll take your reluctance to defend other misdeeds committed by the CCP that I've listed as an admission that they are, indeed, indefensible. Let's finally move on to this last bit of whataboutism you're clutching. > XJ specifically maps onto hysteric over reaction to post 9/11 attacks. The Uighurs predate the CCP by hundreds of years. They are indigenous to their area of Xinjiang. They've resisted CCP rule--which ha…
> XJ : 9/11 Of course context varies but doesn't matter in relation to the response being a counter insurgency and domestic security issue. Which XJ is. It's not about GDP, it's about safety and control over security. Atrocities in the interest of that is a false argument, but it's also an predictable response as 9/11 demonstrated. Such comparison is not whataboutism, claiming so is just lazy rhetoric. Bringing up Na…
> [XJ is] not about GDP, it's about safety and control over security.
If this were the CCP's goal they would grant Uighurs independence--or at least religious freedom. The violence would stop immediately.
Unless it is about GDP and power, then granting independence is a terrible idea.
> Tibet's GDP really blew up
Did the CCP ask the people of Tibet before annexing their land and installing a brutal police state in the name of "GDP growth and development"? This "ends justify the means" thinking is again the exact same logic used to justify insane horrors like the Stalinist industrialization of the USSR.
> the CCP tried US-style multiculturalism, but the Uighurs messed that up.
The anti-religion policies forced on the Uighurs by the CCP are nothing like policies in NYC, LA, or anywhere else in the US. There is no comparison. I'll again point out that the Uighurs were there first, and if the CCP were really interested in multiculturalism and human rights, they would simply leave or erect a liberal system that would protect those rights. But they're obviously not; what they are interested in is, as you say, "forced integration". It's ridiculous to think that policy can be applied without violence. The policy itself is violence.
> A few liberal cities doesn't change the trend.
You were saying there were no examples, so the CCP was justified in perpetrating cultural genocide. I listed several examples to counter. You are moving the goalposts like crazy.
> The blue print works for some urban centres... but nowhere else
It's true that our cities are more diverse than the rest of the country. But it's a common misconception that minorities only live in our cities. More Black Americans live in suburbs and rural areas than cities, and the Hispanic/Latinx representation outside of cities is evening out too (27% to 22%) [1].
Incidentally, it also leads to economic growth [2], your stated chief goal. So the CCP doesn't need to worry, they can simply follow our example.
> multiculturalism is causing undeniable shift in nativism at the national scale, all around the world.
There's no denying there's a lot of passion around multiculturalism and immigration in the US. But not even a plurality of Americans think they're bad. Clear majorities believe the opposite [3]; they think they're our strength, and reinforce our responsibility in taking in refugees [4]. Incredibly, support for refugees has even increased among Republicans.
There's a propaganda campaign largely led by Russia to leverage these issues to cause instability in multicultural societies. Your rhetoric here echos that campaign, and it's similarly incorrect. Americans are proud of our multiculturalism and our freedoms.
> Inequality & Corruption -- the CCP's plans
I admit to not being interested in the CCP's justification for running kangaroo courts (if an anti-corruption process that never holds a trial can be said to use courts), even if that justification is "they used corruption for economic growth", which is a weird kind of incidental confession. It only reemphasizes the CCP's commitment to economic growth and consolidation of power over any kind of human rights.
> The demand for other freedoms doesn't happen until certain levels of economic development is reached.
Then how do you explain nations like Uruguay, Mauritius, and Costa Rica? These countries are "full democracies" according to the Democracy Index (better even than the US), and their nominal GDP per capita is $17,118, $11,693, and $12,015 respectively. Feel free to look through this list [5] for other countries with similar--arguably worse--economic development to China, but with governments far more liberal than the CCP.
I agree China has unique challenges and it's had a rough history. But you simply can't hand wave the CCP's atrocities away with "but the people are poor". There are too many counterexamples for that.
> My view is as long as China has GDP of Iraq there will be no broad pressure to purse values - not democracy mind you - HK instability has ruined the Chinese appetite for that.
This is the opposite lesson they should learn. If they granted the 5 demands--something they could instantly and easily do--HK violence would be over. Same for Tibet and Xinjiang.
> Chinese defense spending is only 2% of GDP, lower than her neighbours.
China's GDP is massive. Cherry picking stats like this is disingenuous. China's military spending is the 2nd highest in the world, after the US.
> Like is the CPC not suppose to have an military suitable to her size or have missiles that can hit Taiwan?
What they should do is not shoot missiles within 30 miles of Taiwan's major cities (3rd Taiwan Strait Crisis), not develop weapons specifically with the aim of invading and annexing Taiwan, and not threaten "profound disaster" when Taiwanese politicians assert independence from China--which it obviously has. The "One China" policy is idiotic, belligerent, and responsible for so much violence.
[1]: https://pewrsr.ch/2qGzUJE
[3]: https://nyti.ms/2pHZ8qF (sorry paywall, the headline is "75% of Americans Say Immigration is Good For Country, Poll Finds")
Re: China
#484Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'll take your reluctance to defend other misdeeds committed by the CCP that I've listed as an admission that they are, indeed, indefensible. Let's finally move on to this last bit of whataboutism you're clutching. > XJ specifically maps onto hysteric over reaction to post 9/11 attacks. The Uighurs predate the CCP by hundreds of years. They are indigenous to their area of Xinjiang. They've resisted CCP rule--which ha…
> XJ : 9/11 Of course context varies but doesn't matter in relation to the response being a counter insurgency and domestic security issue. Which XJ is. It's not about GDP, it's about safety and control over security. Atrocities in the interest of that is a false argument, but it's also an predictable response as 9/11 demonstrated. Such comparison is not whataboutism, claiming so is just lazy rhetoric. Bringing up Na…
> That's not CPC values, that's just inevitable side affect of great power geopolitics and the natural reaction by neighbors in response should be concern.
I am extremely confident that Canada and Mexico have no fear of the US sending missiles to their cities, or troops into their territory. That's because we don't do things like constantly assert that their land is our land, threaten them with destruction, run propaganda campaigns to that affect, and develop weapons specifically with the goal of penetrating their defenses.
> You've just listed all the goals of every great power, some manner of hegemony and political influence like that's somehow explicit to CPC.
I fully admit that the US committed atrocities against Native Americans when we invaded North America. Slavery too was an abomination; Japanese internment camps were disgusting, our treatment of Chinese laborers and immigrants (as well as those from other parts of East Asia) was abhorrent, our criminal justice system is an affront to justice itself, our border control and immigration systems are deeply inhumane and unjust, etc. We would earn and deserve international condemnation if we did any of that stuff today. And we do, look at what organizations have to say about our immigration policies and our criminal justice system. I wish the West would exert more pressure on us, truly.
I'm happy to talk about those issues, just not in a thread about the CCP's actions. When are you going to stop using the actions of others as justification for the CCP?
And again if your argument is "well the US did it", why doesn't the CCP do the good things we do (rule of law, elections, etc.)?
> Obviously the primary goal for CPC is power and self-survival...
This is the definition of a corrupt regime.
> hence CPC having broad domestic support
How could you possibly measure that, given the CCP's surveillance state, re-education camps, vast propaganda network, and lack of any kind of free speech.
> Again you have the right to call on people to antagonize CPC because you think they're the historical tier bad human rights violator
"Antagonize" means "to cause someone to become hostile". By any reasonable standard, the CCP is a hostile regime. You cannot make something hostile if it already is. Do not try and imply the CCP is a peaceful, benevolent government when the facts clearly show otherwise.
It's also very telling that you think my words, my political beliefs, could cause a government to become hostile. Of course, when you're dealing with a regime with no respect for human rights, that's a concern.
> Relative to Chinese population, the atrocities happening in China is comparable to US prison industrial complex and wars abroad.
It is not. Here are the things we do not do as a matter of policy:
- Forced sterilization
- Forced rape and impregnation
- Organ harvesting
- Interning millions of people without cause
- Forcing millions of our own citizens to violate their religious beliefs and to renounce their religion
> US dominated social media ceaseless spam China bad and HK protests...
This is pretty funny. Have you seen all the stories about the CCP's efforts to censor anything about HK? This is the CCP's playbook, whether it's 8964, Xinjiang, Tibet, or HK.
> Ultimately, my argument is you can't eat your morals.
Again, this is a false choice. You absolutely do not have to choose between human rights, rule of law, and economic development. Again feel free to look at the Democracy Index for examples.
> So trying to undermine China via moral arguments is fruitless, especially coming from Americans, who, having voting rights is individually culpable for US behaviours that undermines their ability to critique.
I'm not saying the CCP has to listen to my government or me. They obviously won't; regimes that invest in propaganda as heavily as the CCP does aren't interested in listening. I'm not even telling them what to do. You're making excuses for their behavior, and I'm offering alternatives (invest in independent legal systems, build liberal institutions that respect human rights), but I'm not saying they should. I'm saying if they don't, that's the definition of an authoritarian regime, valuing its own power and enrichment over the well being of its people.
I am imploring the West and our allies to take action though.
I also think it's funny how you're trying to tie me to every action my government takes via our democratic elections like I won't accept it. I do wholeheartedly accept it, every American is responsible for the actions of our government. That's because our government not only represents us, it is us. To paraphrase The West Wing: when you try and hurl that at my feet, as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work. Because I will pick it up and wear it as a badge of honor.
Re: China
#485Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Suppose the US government conducts mass imprisonment of a certain population I'd argue that's not hypothetical at all, even with Xinjiang the US has by far the highest rate of imprisonment on the planet both of adults and children. Most are black. Vast majority are not violent crimes. It's entirely out of step with the rest of the developed world.
Ah, yes. Because someone convicted of a crime going to jail is the same thing as someone being sent to a camp due to their religion. Equating the issues in the US justice system to concentration camps is ridiculous.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/resizer/uKLej0KwcfGN583uqvyfQ...
Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics
I've noticed a massive apathy amongst Chinese towards Xinjiang, the vast majority don't care and think they deserve it. Perhaps you have a lot more in common than you think.
Both countries have horrendous records and many from there feel not the slightest bit of shame about it.
Re: China
#486Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I agree we're bad at it. Are there alternatives you're thinking of I haven't considered?
Good point. Harder soft diplomacy, maybe? Eg Drew in this post proposes a full trade blockade.
Re: China
#487Earlier quoted context omitted.
I know you very well, you specifically only target pro-trump posters. You have NEVER ever said anything to anti-trump baiters.
You must have missed all of those! Here's one from yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21573934 Also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21430000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21288038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20929962 ...and so on.
Re: China
#488Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not just about the rights of the person being executed, but also those of their loved ones. You may say you wouldn't care if your dead carcass was, say, grotesquely abused for someone else's amusement—after all, you're dead and no longer around to have any feelings about it—but how would your children feel? How would you feel if that was the fate awaiting your life partner? The shared endeavor of human society e…
>grotesquely abused Yeah that would be disrespectful. Kind of moving the goalposts though to use that example when talking about organ transplant, something that helps people who might otherwise die. Obviously I am not saying execution is worth it for that. Just more that if someone is dead already for whatever reason, it's hard to see it as a bad thing to help the living, if that can be done. I mean if we're going t…
> I have trouble understanding why a dead person would care about anything after their death
Examining the unstated implications of your argument, taken on its face, is not the same as moving the goalposts. Saying "I don't care what happens after I die, so no need to even ask if you can take my organs... except hang on, no, don't abuse my body in weird ways, I'm not okay with that"–THAT'S moving the goalposts.
> it's hard to see it as a bad thing to help the living
except to the extent that 1) harvesting organs from political prisoners is just about as close to a bad thing as you can imagine, and 2) even if we're not talking about China in particular, involuntary organ extraction harms the dignity of living kin.
> Imagine if the relatives have racist objections to donating an organ, and let someone die because their own feelings would be hurt if they saw a person of the "wrong" race being helped. How do you weigh their racist feelings, versus the life being saved?
The right to bodily integrity, to the choice about how your body is used, is unaffected by your motives. A right does not cease to become a right once you disagree with how someone wishes to exercise it.
You don't want your organs to go to a black man? Exercise your right to bodily integrity by not agreeing to be an organ donor.
Re: China
#489Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because automation is an even bigger factor in the decline of manufacturing jobs than China. Because focusing on China specifically will not lead to outsourced jobs coming back to the US when there are many, many other countries with cheap labor (many cheaper than China at this point). Because even if you banned foreign trade altogether, automation would probably happen 10x faster since then the incentives would be s…
The alternative to allowing manufacturing to move to China is higher prices for goods in the United States. Instead of having really cheap TVs, TVs are more expensive -- they are manufactured here. Why would we want this? Because the alternative is a destruction of the USA manufacturing sector. Moving those jobs overseas only helps two groups: 1.) The Chinese 2.) The owners of capital in America, high up business men…
I agree that retraining doesn't work. But I disagree that stopping trade can save the middle class. Manufacturing is only 7.9% of jobs [1] and stopping all trade will only slow the decline, with huge amounts of collateral damage for other jobs. Almost all jobs used to be in farming, but now they aren't. Manufacturing isn't going to be something that employs a huge number of people anymore. In China they're automating away jobs that pay $10,000 a year.
How are you going to help retail workers, 9.8% of jobs [1], as automation (Amazon warehouses) takes their jobs? Tariffs don't help them any although they'll pay for them.
There's real problems for the middle class and/or certain geographic regions, but stopping trade is a solution that almost no economists think will work. I'd rather try something more promising like UBI.
[1] https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/employment-by-major-industry-...
Re: China
#490Xi's in a trap. The nationalist fervor that the CCP has whipped up for decades, coupled with the demonization of the HK protestors by Chinese media and Xi's 'no compromise' stance, makes it impossible for him to lighten up -- and the protests to de-escalate -- without him seeming weak. The HK protestors/population at this point are so angry and the radical wing so large, that they won't willingly de-escalate. Even if…
> Xi's in a trap. The nationalist fervor that the CCP has whipped up for decades, coupled with the demonization of the HK protestors by Chinese media and Xi's 'no compromise' stance, makes it impossible for him to lighten up -- and the protests to de-escalate -- without him seeming weak. Yeah I don't have any sympathy for him or for the CCP. Appealing to nationalist sentiment to amass political power is making a deal…