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In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

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Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#81

Post by Norse »

bobo99 wrote: post #9
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

But if you have less to win, why should you take risks anyway?

Because the risks are reduced far more than the rewards.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#82

Post by blahedo »

ThomPete wrote: post #74
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

This isn't true if you look to the Scandinavian countries. Because you have less to loose you don't aspire as much thus you don't take risk. Furthermore it's much more expensive to fail in Scandinavia for those who venture into actually risking.

> thus you don't take risk.

And yet, "Rates of start-up creation [in Norway] are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States." Did you read the article?

> it's much more expensive to fail in Scandinavia for those who venture into actually risking.

How so?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#83

Post by rick888 »

stevenbedrick wrote: post #71
rick888 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about. Here in the US, a lot of the things from which we'd like to be "free" from (living in fear of he…

"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about."

You need money though. So directly or indirectly, money is always a factor.

"since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, educational benefits, etc. all without having tons of money."

Well, you had that money, it just went to the government instead of your pocket. The choices you could have made with that money are now gone. Once you are an established company in the US, you could afford those benefits yourself (which is more efficient because rather than paying for all healthcare, you can figure out what will work for your company).

For many non-web related business, it will make it that much more difficult. If you need to spend money on physical goods and your profit margin is razor thin, huge taxes aren't going to make it easier. If you have a business that doesn't scale well with one person (IE: a tech business where you need to hire more employees quickly), the increased employee taxes and requirements might make it an impossibility to continue (if you have no funding).

So, it might help with web businesses that can scale well with one employee or ones that are funded by VC. I wonder how many people are actually bootstrapping a company there.

"Since there are different "givens", it's not surprising that Norwegians have arrived at different conclusions and attitudes towards money. QED?"

Norwegians now have a sense of entitlement. It all depends on what you want. If you want an easier start, but have your overall potential income limited, start a company in Norway. If you want a riskier start, with less limits in the long-run, start your company in the US.

I still have to wonder. If this was such a great system, why aren't more people starting companies? There is no risk, right? Why isn't Norway the center for startups?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#84

Post by Norse »

ThomPete wrote: post #74
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

This isn't true if you look to the Scandinavian countries. Because you have less to loose you don't aspire as much thus you don't take risk. Furthermore it's much more expensive to fail in Scandinavia for those who venture into actually risking.

Yet the rates of startups are higher in Norway.

And "it is more expensive o fail"? With no risk of medical bankrupcy, guaranteed health care, free university for the kids, a generous safety net, pensions etc...how can it possibly be more disastrous?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#85

Post by xlpz »

brc wrote: post #73
tallanvor wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in how you define a term, but traditionally Norway is a very socialist country - The major businesses were owned by the state, and while that has changed, the government does still hold large stakes in telecom, oil, and transportation companies. Private businesses also generally have a much flatter hierarchy than you find in the US, and income distribution is much more equally. And, of course, the member par…

You're free to leave Norway whenever you like. You can own private property in Norway, and grow your business and keep at least half the profits. Socialist countries have state ownership, no private property, restrictions on freedoms. Norway is a social democracy. At any point the government could be voted out and replaced with one that changes all the laws. It's not a socialist country.

Who exactly gets to define that only authoritarian regimes with freedom restrictions practice anything that can be properly described as socialism?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#86

Post by dantheman »

Norse wrote: post #79
dantheman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a minority loses out in a democracy, they can either adapt and accept the situation or struggle to change it. Often times it's easier to just change ones own position than to actually do something, that most likely will not succeed and if it does provides limited benefit - the ROI isn't worth it. For example, I think the taxes are too high: 1. I can complain all the time, and be miserable. 2. I can work to ch…

5. You can opt out, and live in the wilderness, not being a part of the economic system, and paying no taxes. 6. You can stop working, and live on the mimimum amount you get off other peoples taxes. 7. You can move to a country with lower taxes. If all these freedoms seem to much work to you, the only person enslaving you is you.

5. Why must one opt out of the economic system? 6. Why must one stop working? 7. Why must one move away from their friends and family, to a foreign land? What if there is nowhere else with lower taxes?

I believe the the observation, about slave morality is being misunderstood.

But more importantly, the crux of my argument is this - if people are truly happy about the level of taxation, then why is it mandatory. For instance, you could have a minimal tax of 5% for core government functions and allow people to contribute any percentage they would above that to fund other various programs - you could even provide a guide. For current government functions to continue at their current level, the suggested donation for individuals at your income level is 55%.

If you don't accept that deal, then it doesn't seem that you are being honest with yourself that you have no problems with the level taxation.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#87

Post by derleth »

johnohara wrote: post #11
zdw wrote: post #7

If you have less to lose, you're more willing to take risks. Thus having the government take care of basic welfare and health care benefits frees people to be entrepreneurial, in a sense. Compare to the US, where people are tied to a job based on the benefits they have through that job, and before the health care legislation's removal of preexisting conditions clauses, if you had a medical condition and lost your job…

I don't know what constitutes "basic welfare" in Norway, but were the U.S. Dept. of Commerce to reimburse the health care premiums of anyone starting a new business, up to 100 weeks, I believe you would see a marked increase in the creation of new businesses in this country. If anything, it would grease the rails to becoming "ramen profitable."

> but were the U.S. Dept. of Commerce to reimburse the health care premiums of anyone starting a new business, up to 100 weeks, I believe you would see a marked increase in the creation of new businesses in this country.

You'd have to word the bill very stringently to ensure that the new businesses weren't just new parts of an existing business shuffling employees around to take advantage of all the money now sitting on the table.

For example, $BIGCO all of a sudden becomes the angel investor for a half-dozen startups full of ex-$BIGCO employees who are somehow still working on pre-existing $BIGCO products and understand that $BIGCO will ensure their paychecks as long as they do the kind of work they did while they were still at $BIGCO. The only difference is that the government is paying for the healthcare of those (ex-)$BIGCO employees, allowing the $BIGCO CEO to make 300% more this quarter.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#88

Post by jarek »

rick888 wrote: post #83
stevenbedrick wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about. Here in the US, a lot of the things from which we'd like to be "free" from (living in fear of he…

"No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about." You need money though. So directly or indirectly, money is always a factor. "since you can have the freedom from healthcare-related financial catastrophe, a decent vacation policy, education…

> Why isn't Norway the center for startups?

It is a center, per capita. From the full version of the article, http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/in-norway-start-ups-say...:

"Rates of start-up creation here are among the highest in the developed world, and Norway has more entrepreneurs per capita than the United States, according to the latest report by the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor, a Boston-based research consortium."

You don't hear about it as much because Norway is a relatively small country relatively far away from the U.S. (both geographically and culturally). The lack of Silicon Valley-like echo chamber is also a factor.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#89

Post by stevenbedrick »

stevenbedrick wrote: post #71
rick888 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Speaking as one who has started several start-ups in Norway, I'd say: there is still quite a bit to win, there is much less risk, and at the end of the day, we're not really in it for the money, are we?" That last part makes me think that you aren't really making that much and justifying it by saying: "we're not really in it for the money, are we?". Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from…

> Everyone is in it for the money. Money means freedom. Freedom from governments and your boss. No, everybody is not "in it for the money". You said it yourself, actually: most people are in it for the things that money allows them to do. That is a very important difference, and it's one that a lot of people forget about. Here in the US, a lot of the things from which we'd like to be "free" from (living in fear of he…

Edit: just noticed, it should say "the aforementioned inverse of the money/freedom relationship", not "the aforementioned inverse relationship".

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#90

Post by guelo »

mindcrime wrote: post #63

Bloody good on Norway. Now if you want Norwegian taxes or the Norwegian government, move to Norway. I'll take the American moral view on taxation, and fight taxation tooth-and-nail until I die, regardless of the pragmatics of it. It's about choice, and freedom, not the actual dollars and cents. Come up with a scheme that moves functions currently executed by the government into a privately run, voluntary collective,…

This is why we can't have nice things.
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