The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’ • Hacker News Board

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#51

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #36

nextos wrote: post #7

I think Ive needed Jobs to provide some user feedback he would listen to ahead of product release. Without Jobs, it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track. Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good. I haven't bought any Apple products for years, except for their peripherals. Their touchpad is excellent, and there's no other alternative in the market I know of that works decently in…

> it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track This was a conscious decision, they could have reverted the mistake in 12 months if they had truly wanted. But it would require burning a production line and design roadmap that was supposed to last 3 years. Turned out having users buy an inherently faulty $2000+ product for 3 years and a repair program was the easier pill to swallow. Tim Cook isn't a product pe…

The iOS devices haven't suffered similarly though. Those products have been developing fine.

Apple just hasn't cared enough about the Mac (the Mac Pro is proof of that). I've read reports (could be false) that all the A players go on the iOS teams, and the ones left on the Mac teams are the handful of truly passionate, and the B players. (well if you read other reports, the A players go to Google where they pay better...)

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#52

Post by dade_ » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

I disagree aboUt USB-C on a Mac, Apple has always pushed new interfaces forward. The iPhone is where the problem is, they keep refusing to retire lightning. This is one area where it just doesn't work.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#53

Post by nathanaldensr » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

pistoriusp wrote: post #50

Want to love your current "bad keyboard" MBP again? Grab a wireless Apple Magic Keyboard and stick it directly on top of the current IVE keyboard and use Karabiner elements to disable the MBP's internal keyboard. I actually genuinely enjoy this computer now. A few days ago I was trying to figure out how to sell it and get a new 16" one, but honestly Apple doesn't deserve my money or attention anymore.

Can you imagine what people would say about PCs if one had to do this with a PC laptop?

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#54

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #26

scarface74 wrote: post #16

Jason mentioned it on his podcast, but I didn’t see it in the article. The iPhone 11 Pros are also moving into the right direction. They are heavier, slightly thicker and have better battery life. The Apple battery cases have always been a case of function over form. They have always been butt ugly, but more functional than third party cases.

>> also moving into the right direction. They are heavier, slightly thicker and have better battery life. The worst thing about the latest iphones(10, pro) is that they got heavier. I find it so bad that I skipped the upgrade(s) because of that.

How much heavier than your current phone were they?

(I'm not suggesting anyone updates, just curious how much weight caused this to be the primary decision point.)

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#55

Post by ubermonkey » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

workthrowaway wrote: post #46

nextos wrote: post #7

I think Ive needed Jobs to provide some user feedback he would listen to ahead of product release. Without Jobs, it's taken Apple years to get keyboards back on track. Which is absurd given that their desktop keyboard is really good. I haven't bought any Apple products for years, except for their peripherals. Their touchpad is excellent, and there's no other alternative in the market I know of that works decently in…

> Their touchpad is excellent... exception: the 2017 macbook pro trackpad. it's not great. i don't know how many times i had to plug a mouse in to get drag and drop to work...

The poster you were replying to makes it clear he means the stand-alone touchpad, not ones in laptops.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#56

Post by JasonFruit » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

kayoone wrote: post #9

sudhirj wrote: post #3

Certainly seems that way, but it's discouraging that Ive and Apple had to part ways just for Apple to get back on track. Very much a case of either dying a hero or living long enough to become the villian. I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciousl…

> I use this as a reminder not to drink my own kool aid. Even if I'm being recognized at being good at something, it's not an excuse to double down on it and push it too hard. No one is applauded for being judiciously balanced. But for a lot of things it can be positive if recognition motivates you to do more. Like can you ever be too good of an athlete? Too good of a programmer?

Not too good an athlete or too good a programmer, but an athlete complimented on his strength can focus on that to the detriment of his overall performance, and a programmer praised for her architecture can go on to . . . create Java framework-generating frameworks. Knowing your strengths is a good thing, but letting them dominate your identity is not.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#57

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

ComSubVie wrote: post #43

> I like to call this Jobs’s Law, though it could just as easily be called the Ive Doctrine: Always strive for the next version of your product to be thinner and lighter than the current one. Then hopefully somebody will start making "reasonable-sized" phones again. Something like iPhone4/5 size with full-size displays.

Not happening. Big co. are all going after Asian markets, and aircraft carrier sized smartphones took off as a trend there.

Some people are even buy 2 devices these days. A giant 7 inch smartphone, and a dumphone or bluetooth handset with dial pad in addition to it.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#58

Post by baybal2 » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

diroussel wrote: post #49

scarface74 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPhones work with any BT headphones.

But most BT headphones don’t work seemlessly between laptop and phone. You usually have to unpair from you phone to pair to you laptop. With a headphone jack I can unplug from my phone and plug into my laptop. But once those devices loose headphone jacks I can’t just switch to BT headphones. But I can switch to AirPods. Which seem quite expensive. What other Bluetooth headphones can easily switch from my MacBook to m…

> But most BT headphones don’t work seamlessly between laptop and phone.

That's a firmware deficiency, not something mandated by bluetooth ICs. I, right now, use bluetooth headphones that connect to my phone and my laptop simultaneously.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#59

Post by lewiscollard » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

1234_uuuuu wrote: post #6

raxxorrax wrote: post #2

Wow, this website eats CPU processing power like candy. It distracts from reading if your fan screams at you.

I'm amazed just how many websites my '19 MacBook Air struggles with. That's not an indictment of the Air, which I bought fully cognizant of the battery / heat / power tradeoffs. The Air is happy to run native design, etc. software. The only time I feel its performance limitations is when I'm browsing the goddamned web . Running a Pro most of the time it's easy to overlook just what utter pigs many websites are today.…

I'll put money on that not being the engineers; I'm guessing that a dev merely added Google Tag Manager and someone in sales/digital marketing went to town on it.

Still, yep, I disabled uBlock Origin and that site is bad (on my work's 2015 Macbook Pro). I like disabling it on news sites every now and then to remind me just how utterly fucking unusable much of the Web is without it.

Re: The 16-inch MacBook Pro is a repudiation of the ‘Ive Doctrine’

#60

Post by BigJ1211 » Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:10 PM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #35

willis936 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What keyboard has high latency?

Maybe he means key travel time? I am also baffled by that comment.

The latency on the magic keyboard is only 15ms, as opposed to the common 30-40ms on other keyboards.

Key travel time contributes to this, so if you have longer travel you will also have longer latency (latency being the beginning of the keypress untill the character appears on your screen). I personally much prefer the feel of a mechanical keyboard, so I dislike both the magic keyboard and regular dome keyboards. The typing experience on a mechanical keyboard is better, even though it has more travel.