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In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

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Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#31

Post by michael_dorfman »

borism wrote: post #29
johnohara wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what constitutes "basic welfare" in Norway, but were the U.S. Dept. of Commerce to reimburse the health care premiums of anyone starting a new business, up to 100 weeks, I believe you would see a marked increase in the creation of new businesses in this country. If anything, it would grease the rails to becoming "ramen profitable."

wow, what an irresponsible proposal. corporations already have free speech, now they need to get government paid healthcare also? why should US taxpayers reimburse those entrepreneur's health care costs if most of them will fail to produce any jobs at all? looks like a great way to create even more moral hazard in US companies. health care of work force should be shared between employers and society as a whole, not o…

The Norwegian solution-- actually, come to think of it, the rest-of-the-world-outside-the-US solution-- is to break the linkage between health care and employment altogether, thus eliminating the moral hazard, and guaranteeing adequate health care for all.

In terms of the present discussion, it is easier for entrepreneurs to commit to a start-up if there is no fear of losing health-care coverage. That's a big win, if you ask me.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#32

Post by ThomPete »

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Norway don't say yes to socialism they say yes to social welfare in a different way than in the US.

So do Denmark (where I am from) and Sweden.

Yes the taxes are higher (up to 60% in Denmark with a progressive tax system) and about the same I believe in Norway.

But it's not like everyone walks around an love it. In fact there is great opposition to the level that taxation have gone to. In Denmark it's an election year and several social welfare benefits plus income tax is being discussed as the main theme.

But all this doesn't really matter cause the US have something that neither of the Scandinavian countries nor any other European nations have.

They have a big ass market and one language.

Europe is a huge market (around +400 Million no?) but most countries (unlike Scandinavia) don't do well with english so there is no unifying factors that allow for the kind of scalable business that can be created in the US (at least not as easily)

There are many problems with the kind of social welfare models and lack of aspiration is actually one of them. People don't try as hard and because they pay high taxes they come to expect A LOT from the government.

I have lived in the US for enough years to know that there are many things that the US should envy from the Scandinavian countries. But the start-up environment is not one of them.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#33

Post by relic17 »

The article implies that most people in Norway believe that individual rights are less important than the average welfare of all individuals taken together and that personal lives are less important than the well-being of the collective. This is quite logical, because it is the acceptance of this view of the world that makes their system possible.

A similar view is at the root of most governments around the world today and it certainly underpinned the socialist/communist block in the 20th century, though to a different degree. The United States has been a notable exception.

But let's focus on Norway and the idea that it can serve as a model. To take a small example, who believes that a skilled doctor is genuinely happy to have half of his income taken away by law and given to the janitor of his hospital, so that the latter receives the roughly same pay? Well, the surveys say that the level of happiness in Norway are very high, so the doctor must be happy. Happiness measures aside, does that make sense? Is the doctor genuinely happy or has he been told by generations of intellectuals what he should feel happy about and what he should feel guilty about? This is a question that everyone who nominates Norway as a model for the US should answer logically.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#34

Post by dantheman »

beoba wrote: post #26
dantheman wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was what they truly thought then there would be no reason to use force to collect taxes, they could just have a recommended donation and collect that. For some reason, I don't think that would work. This form of mental gymnastics, is very comparable to Nietzsche's analysis of the slave morality - where one alters their values in reaction oppression, so that it becomes moral, or even desirable, to act in a sub…

Let's not forget that if it was such a bad deal, they could vote to change things. When's the last time a "slave", using your words, had a vote? But it takes more than perks to keep a worker motivated in Norway. In a country with low unemployment and generous unemployment benefits, a worker's threat to quit is more credible than it is in the United States, giving workers more leverage over employers. [...] "You can't…

Because a minority loses out in a democracy, they can either adapt and accept the situation or struggle to change it. Often times it's easier to just change ones own position than to actually do something, that most likely will not succeed and if it does provides limited benefit - the ROI isn't worth it.

For example, I think the taxes are too high:

1. I can complain all the time, and be miserable.

2. I can work to change it - but lets say it takes me 10 hours a week to make any dent at all, and I'll only save 10k -- not worth it.

3. I can wish that it was lower, but do nothing and just live my life as it is. Though, I may feel anger or frustration - negatively impacting my life.

or lastly

4. I can change my position - I guess the taxes are good, I get this stuff that I need, etc. Now I'm happy with my current situation and don't have any need to change it. By changing my perspective I've removed a source of pain in my life, even though it still exists -- I am no longer consciously aware of it.

A little bit more on the concept of slave morality, it applies to Nietzsche's critique of Christianity:

"By saying humility is voluntary, slave morality avoids admitting that their humility was in the beginning forced upon them by a master. Biblical principles of turning the other cheek, humility, charity, and pity are the result of universalizing the plight of the slave onto all humankind, and thus enslaving the masters as well." [1]

He argues that in early Christianity instead of glorifying standing up to their oppressors, which was difficult and fraught with danger, that they glorified being subservient - when the master hits you turn the other cheek, don't defend yourself

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#35

Post by _corbett »

This article rings true to me. I've lived and worked in Norway for a successful startup (FAST Search, later bought by Microsoft) above the Arctic circle. It's a lovely country, the startup did feel like a family (in fact, many brought their kids to work), we worked and played hard, etc. I paid 50% tax and $15 for beers and was more than happy to do so as well–the taxes were well used and having an entire population, rather than a small circle of friends with a high standard of living was so much more fun.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#36

Post by _corbett »

beoba wrote: post #3

I thought this line was particularly telling: "Although America remains near the top of the world in terms of entrepreneurial aspirations - that is, the percentage of people who want to start new things-in terms of actual start-up activity, our country has fallen behind not just Norway but also Canada, Denmark and Switzerland." Yet any mention of figuring out what they're doing right (and what we're doing wrong) is S…

Switzerland is by no means socialist and is rather an example of many libertarian ideals. Taxes are done by canton (city/state) and in some one can pay as little as no income tax. Health care is required, decoupled from employment and well regulated, but private. I've lived in all of the aforementioned countries and prefer the socialist model, but Switzerland is another example of there being many ways to reach the same ideal. I only hope the US can make it there too one day so that I could feel comfortable living in it.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#37

Post by astrange »

dantheman wrote: post #14
beoba wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first thing I learned is that Norwegians don't think about taxes the way we do. Whereas most Americans see taxes as a burden, Norwegian entrepreneurs tend to see them as a purchase, an exchange of cash for services. "I look at it as a lifelong investment," says Davor Sutija, CEO of Thinfilm[...].

If that was what they truly thought then there would be no reason to use force to collect taxes, they could just have a recommended donation and collect that. For some reason, I don't think that would work. This form of mental gymnastics, is very comparable to Nietzsche's analysis of the slave morality - where one alters their values in reaction oppression, so that it becomes moral, or even desirable, to act in a sub…

What do you think about compulsory vaccinations?

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#38

Post by limmeau »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #12
lawfulfalafel wrote: post #10

This was posted 9 days ago: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2124799 I do congratulate you on linking to the mobile site to bypass the url conflict, that is pretty smart.

That was inadvertent, not clever. The person who sent me the link did it via mobile phone, so he used the mobile link, and I didn't see it when it was posted previously.

I enjoyed the lean layout and thought you had chosen the mobile version for that purpose.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#39

Post by natnat »

borism wrote: post #29
johnohara wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what constitutes "basic welfare" in Norway, but were the U.S. Dept. of Commerce to reimburse the health care premiums of anyone starting a new business, up to 100 weeks, I believe you would see a marked increase in the creation of new businesses in this country. If anything, it would grease the rails to becoming "ramen profitable."

wow, what an irresponsible proposal. corporations already have free speech, now they need to get government paid healthcare also? why should US taxpayers reimburse those entrepreneur's health care costs if most of them will fail to produce any jobs at all? looks like a great way to create even more moral hazard in US companies. health care of work force should be shared between employers and society as a whole, not o…

You're conflating small companies with a few employees and revenues in the thousands to millions with massive quasi-governmental institutions with profits in the billions. The first group doesn't have access to inexpensive healthcare (because their risk pools are small and they don't have much negotiating power), they don't have access to lobbyists to write laws for them, and they don't have access to armies of lawyers that can twist the meaning of laws already on the books.

The "free speech" issue really only applies to companies that have the resources to influence the government to begin with. A startup that has five employees and is only ramen profitable isn't going to hire a lobbyist.

On the other hand, I do think you're sort of right. If a benefit like this were passed, a lot of unemployed people would suddenly become "entrepreneurs" to get free healthcare. Large companies would find ways to spin off into thousands of "new" shell companies and transfer their employees there to get free healthcare as well.

Of course, the way the healthcare system exists now is basically that the government subsidizes entrenched players with tax incentives and allows employment to become essentially indentured servitude because the risk of losing healthcare while switching jobs is just way too high.

Re: In Norway, Start-ups Say Ja to Socialism

#40

Post by borism »

natnat wrote: post #39
borism wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, what an irresponsible proposal. corporations already have free speech, now they need to get government paid healthcare also? why should US taxpayers reimburse those entrepreneur's health care costs if most of them will fail to produce any jobs at all? looks like a great way to create even more moral hazard in US companies. health care of work force should be shared between employers and society as a whole, not o…

You're conflating small companies with a few employees and revenues in the thousands to millions with massive quasi-governmental institutions with profits in the billions. The first group doesn't have access to inexpensive healthcare (because their risk pools are small and they don't have much negotiating power), they don't have access to lobbyists to write laws for them, and they don't have access to armies of lawye…

The first group doesn't have access to inexpensive healthcare (because their risk pools are small and they don't have much negotiating power), they don't have access to lobbyists to write laws for them, and they don't have access to armies of lawyers that can twist the meaning of laws already on the books.

see, you identified a handful of problems that are worth solving, not postponing them by giving out "reimbursements".

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