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Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

improveyoursocialskills.com

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Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#111

Post by leetcrew »

babadabada wrote: post #80
kempbellt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization. I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am - even if it hasn't been very common (in my experience).

I'm a young woman in tech. I am happy to confirm that "since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code" is in fact some sexist bullshit.

the wording was sort of clumsy, but this is not a very charitable take. most people (men and women) really don't want to talk in depth about code or any other of your specific interests.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#112

Post by cocomittens »

babadabada wrote: post #80
kempbellt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code This may reflect your subjective experience, but I have had a different experience and would (kindly) give you the heads up that this is a borderline sexist generalization. I've met women in the industry that are just as capable as nerding out over new tech as I am - even if it hasn't been very common (in my experience).

I'm a young woman in tech. I am happy to confirm that "since most young women aren't exactly excited to talk about code" is in fact some sexist bullshit.

Same. Though I do have to admit the gender ratio is skewed a bit at my company you can count on one hand the amount of female engineers while there is 100+ male ones. They even changed the female bathroom to be 2 male ones but left us a couple fancy individual ones which I'm fine with.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#113

Post by whatshisface »

77pt77 wrote: post #96
Dumblydorr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that more often than not, the speaker already knows potential solutions and next steps, they just want you to agree that it sucks. Too often, solutions driven people try to solve venters' problems rather than simply listening to what they are.

>Too often, solutions driven people try to solve venters' problems rather than simply listening to what they are. If you don't want actionable answers to a problem, save it to your personal life or therapist. Your colleagues have a duty to behave decently towards you but they are not paid to be your emotional dumpster.

You're talking about colleagues, who you don't have any duty to be emotionally available for, but the parent poster is talking about friends and family.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#114

Post by lisper »

Madmallard wrote: post #97
username90 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People will ask for advice if they really want it. People will even ask for advice even when they really don't want it! So don't say that a girl is fat and needs to diet even if she asks you why she can't get the guys she want and tell you to be honest. Some want to hear that but most don't.

What would you say is the right behavior in that situation, then?

"I have no idea what guys want. Every guy is different. And it's not just you: there are seven billion people in the world, and some of them are not going to be into you no matter who you are. But among those seven billion there are also going to be some who like you for who you are, so don't give up. But be careful about falling into the trap of being gloomy because you think you're never going to find someone, because that can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy."

Then give her a hug.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#115

Post by kempbellt »

throwaway0xb wrote: post #101
kempbellt wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your perspective. Unfortunately, however idealistic, I don't see that being a great benefit in the long term for anyone. I prefer environments that teach you how to advocate for your ideas. Build you up as a good self-advocate. Environments that say "Hey everybody! It's Timmy's turn to speak. Pass him the talking stick" are patronizing and disgust me at the onset. Better to have someone by your side sayi…

Pretty incredible exchange you are having with people right now where you are just straight up ignoring valid points or sweeping them aside as idealism...

Think of it as a free lesson in self-advocation if you'd like.

I'm engaging in the conversation by bringing my points to the table. I see it as an idealistic proposal that doesn't match my understanding of reality. It is very plausible that I am wrong - please explain to me how you disagree, I'm happy to listen. Seriously.

Just because someone has an idea doesn't mean I have to immediately agree with it or like it. Feel free to disagree with me on this, as it would prove my point. It's your right after all.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#116

Post by pavas »

kempbellt wrote: post #87
notJim wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the problem with environments like that is that the best fighters win, not the best ideas. The best fighters are usually the people who can project the most confidence, talk the loudest, and who are the most popular. By contrast, environments that provide psychological safety enable people who may have better ideas, but may not be as brash and overconfident to contribute.

I understand your perspective. Unfortunately, however idealistic, I don't see that being a great benefit in the long term for anyone. I prefer environments that teach you how to advocate for your ideas. Build you up as a good self-advocate. Environments that say "Hey everybody! It's Timmy's turn to speak. Pass him the talking stick" are patronizing and disgust me at the onset. Better to have someone by your side sayi…

I think you're actually missing his point, which is not so much a matter of perspective but rather a direct application of Goodheart's Law. When you are trying to incentivize by proxy (e.g. promote good ideas by rewarding vocal and assertive people), you better hope that there is a very tight correlation between the two.

His point is that there isn't much correlation between good ideas and assertive personalities, so if you incentivize the latter you won't necessarily get the former. I'm inclined to agree with that.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#117

Post by automatoney »

77pt77 wrote: post #96
Dumblydorr wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that more often than not, the speaker already knows potential solutions and next steps, they just want you to agree that it sucks. Too often, solutions driven people try to solve venters' problems rather than simply listening to what they are.

>Too often, solutions driven people try to solve venters' problems rather than simply listening to what they are. If you don't want actionable answers to a problem, save it to your personal life or therapist. Your colleagues have a duty to behave decently towards you but they are not paid to be your emotional dumpster.

Even if you have no contractual obligation to listen to your coworkers, in general many people enjoy, and potentially expect, to become closer with their coworkers which is generally accomplished through sharing personal details and emotions. It's totally fine if you don't want to participate, (and it's possible for people to over-rely on others for emotional labor) but I think many other people are more productive when they're more than just acquaintances with their coworkers.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#118

Post by wisty »

wallflower wrote: post #53

While some of you may make light of the fact that I am giving you advice, my single most important piece of advice to people who are highly analytical and/or always solving problems is to not give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers. People will ask for advice if they really want it. People are not “broken pieces of code” begging to be fixed. I’ve lost friends over this, until one…

In Chinese culture, there's a big thing about your true friends being the ones who will tell you when you're wrong. A coworker, on the other hand, is not your responsibility, it's their life they're screwing up.

Of course, that doesn't mean people like it.

Personally, I will eventually give advice to people if they're venting. I'll make it polite, of course. If they don't want to fix their shit, then I'm not obliged to listen to it.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#119

Post by whatshisface »

notJim wrote: post #77
kempbellt wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. I value high-friction environments where people are encouraged to compete and fight to support their ideas, where they feel valued for fighting for themselves, rather than patronized... The real world doesn't coddle you. Work should reflect that to some degree - with some respect to being a decent person in general. Just knowing that you know your shit, and it's okay (preferred even), if you fight…

In my experience, the problem with environments like that is that the best fighters win, not the best ideas. The best fighters are usually the people who can project the most confidence, talk the loudest, and who are the most popular. By contrast, environments that provide psychological safety enable people who may have better ideas, but may not be as brash and overconfident to contribute.

You have to be careful about those safe environments, as they often simply shift the weapons from loudness and brashness to sweet-sounding talk and subtle negative suggestions. It changes the breed of social warrior who wins from the "Conan the Barbarian" type to the "Mean Girls" type, but that doesn't help good ideas. One example of a dysfunctional strategy that only works in safe environments is the technique of subtly poking at someone's emotions until they say something off-limits or use an unacceptable tone of voice. Toxic individuals are always at work, and changing the rules sometimes does nothing better than changing the ruling toxic personality type.

Re: Basic Social Skills Guide (2012)

#120

Post by benburleson »

wallflower wrote: post #53

While some of you may make light of the fact that I am giving you advice, my single most important piece of advice to people who are highly analytical and/or always solving problems is to not give unsolicited advice to friends, family, acquaintances, or even strangers. People will ask for advice if they really want it. People are not “broken pieces of code” begging to be fixed. I’ve lost friends over this, until one…

This is especially important with your spouse/partner/significant other.

At the beginning of our relationship, I can't tell you how many times I heard, "I'm not asking for you to solve my problem, I just want you to listen!"

It can be frustrating, I know, but just shut up and be there for the person that just needs you to be there.

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