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In Defense of Latin

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Re: In Defense of Latin

#151
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arbitrary word order doesn't make a natural language more 'powerful'. German has more flexible word order than English, but anything you can say in one, you can say in the other. It's just a trade off between marking the roles of your words in a sentence either with position or by decorating your words. Very similar to positional vs keyword arguments in programming languages. (Interestingly, just like Python allows y…

It would be more correct to say that Turkish language doesn't have 'genders' in the way that English and German has them. Turkish refers to a 'being' instead of 'he/she/they/it'. I love that aspect of the Turkish language :)

Are you referring to the possibility to drop the pronoun when it's clear from context?

That's different from questions about gender.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#152
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not quite right. Classical Latin had a lot of things that virtually no modern language has: a fully developed passive conjugation, a fully developed conjunctive, and - the cherry on the cake - a rigorously expressed separation between phases (consecutio temporum). Latin is quite magical, and even if it was actually more crude than some of its contemporaries like Ancient Greek and Sanskrit, it's still sweeter t…

I have no idea what "fully developed passive conjugation" is, but my language is very old and I imagine very difficult for English speaker to learn. There is an example how fun it can be: http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm

It means that every conjugation of an active verb has a corresponding passive form, as in your link: esąs - buvęs - būsįas versus esamas - būtas - būsimas . But that's underselling it a bit, because Latin actually had a full 3-dimensional matrix of conjugations: time-based tense (past, present, future), goal-based tense (completed or ongoing), and action (active or passive), with accompanying participles for each case. To compare with your link, I notice Lithuanian seems to lack passive participles ("while being beaten" is the corresponding example), while keeping some of the circumstantial conjugations (frequency, intent, necessity, conjunct phrases) that older languages did have, but Latin did away with.

In more analytical languages, most of these constructs have been replaced with auxiliary verbs (as in English: I see versus I'm seen, I'm watching versus I'm being watched). With full conjugations, entire sentences can change in tense or action without affecting word order. This may not seem that special if your native language is like that, but as the OP started out saying, it allows for much more expressiveness in (predominantly written) language.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#153
I'm an Italian Software Engineer raised in Rome and I did studied Latin in High School. This is a topic that I care about deeply. LATIN IS BOTH DEAD AND USELESS. Unfortunately most of italians strongly disagree on these two points like the author of the article and my father. Latin is spoken by very few people and it has very little utility. Latin is much less usefull and much less spoken than all modern Latin derived languages. If you learn Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian or Romanian you will be much better off. The whole argument of Latin being useful to learn later on another Latin language is pointless. If you learn Spanish you will likely learn any other Latin derived language much faster than if you knew Latin.

Latin is no more. Don't cling to the past. Move on. English, Spanish and Chinese are the new Latin today.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#154
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. > The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: I have the pleasure to experience this freedom on word order in my native language (Portuguese) and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). [1] Although Portuguese presents thi…

Actually, Lithuanian is the most archaic language in Europe, which is what makes it so good.

Lithuanian is very conservative in some aspects, and very progressive in others. For example, it has lost the neutral gender and it has innovated some cases that didn't exist in PIE. There is no scientific, consistent way to call it as a whole more archaic than any other language.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#155

Latin is "dead" and that's its advantage. English is well "alive", and living implies mutation. In 500 years, our children would be reading our English as we read Shakespeare (that is, with difficulty); and in 1000 years, our English would become what Beowulf looks like today (that is, you can't recognize a word). Latin doesn't change. Caesar's Latin is Vulgate's Latin, which is Newton's Latin, which is the Pope's La…

Caesar would rotate vomiting in his grave if he knew you're comparing even his simple ways of using the language to the medieval barbarians. And he didn't speak the same Latin as the founders of Rome either.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#156
post #152
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what "fully developed passive conjugation" is, but my language is very old and I imagine very difficult for English speaker to learn. There is an example how fun it can be: http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_1_04.htm

It means that every conjugation of an active verb has a corresponding passive form, as in your link: esąs - buvęs - būsįas versus esamas - būtas - būsimas . But that's underselling it a bit, because Latin actually had a full 3-dimensional matrix of conjugations: time-based tense (past, present, future), goal-based tense (completed or ongoing), and action (active or passive), with accompanying participles for each cas…

If I got it right, Lithuanian does have passive participle (neveikiamasis dalyvis). In the case of "while being eaten" it would be "valgomas". "While being beaten" -> "mušamas". He was silent while being beaten -> Mušamas jis tylėjo.

To quote Wikipedia:

    the Lithuanian language is unique for having fourteen different
    participial forms of the verb, which can be grouped into five
    when accounting for inflection by tense. Some of these are also
    inflected by gender and case. For example, the verb eiti ("to
    go, to walk") has the active participle forms einąs/einantis
    ("going, walking", present tense), ėjęs (past tense), eisiąs
    (future tense), eidavęs (past frequentative tense), the passive 
    participle forms einamas ("being walked", present tense), eitas 
    (“walked” past tense), eisimas (future tense), the adverbial 
    participles einant ("while [he, different subject] is walking" 
    present tense), ėjus (past tense), eisiant (future tense), 
    eidavus (past frequentative tense), the semi-participle eidamas 
    ("while [he, the same subject] is going, walking") and the
    participle of necessity eitinas ("that which needs to be 
    walked"). The active, passive, and the semi-participles are 
    inflected by gender, and the active, passive, and necessity 
    ones are inflected by case.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#157
If I understand the argument advanced by the article correctly (trivial though it may be), it is as follows: things may be worth investing your time into not just because they are useful, but because they are somehow emotionally satisfying.

While I completely agree with this argument (precisely because it is so trivial), I find it essentially pointless. While "usefulness" of an occupation can be somehow quantified and used to convince other people that a particular occupation is worth doing, emotional satisfaction is subjective and not comparable between different individuals. While someone gets a kick out of reading Latin, another may find pleasure in playing sports or gaming. One pastime in no way seems better than the other.

She toys with this question by asking why not study German, Russian, Arabic, or Chinese instead, and I think completely drops the ball with the answer.

The article can convince only those who share the author's aesthetic values.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#158
post #2

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that, together with other grammatical features, gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: It allows you to express the content in such a way that the way you express it matches the content. For example, consider the verses: Daedalus…

I've studied Latin in school (and plan to do it again in the future, I'd like to be able to read it semi-fluently eventually). I really enjoy the language but I'd be extremely wary of using qualifiers like "powerful" for languages. That generally leads us towards extremely bad linguistics. Being more synthetic doesn't mean that you're more powerful per-se. You haven't said that exactly of course but I encounter this sentiment a lot in English-speaking circles, with people saying things like English is "dumbed down" or simpler because it prefers analytic constructs to synthetic ones. I also remember a Brazilian fellow saying that Brazilian Portuguese was worsening because people favored the analytic future "vou comer" over the synthetic "comerei" (which is amusing because this synthetic future comes from an analytic construct "comer hei", it's not the Latin future tense).

As a sibling comment points out, these features exist in may other languages, for instance Slavic languages such as Russian or Polish. Besides, even though this flexibility is theoretically achievable, in practice the day-to-day language is filled with more calcified idioms and ways of speech. You could, in English, say "to you this book I give" instead of "I give this book to you" but I'm sure most agree that's rather slanted even though I believe this is perfectly grammatical. A poet could write the former, but if you say something like that in colloquial speech people are going to wonder if you're having a stroke.

Judging the "power" and flexibility of Latin through the verses of Ovid is like judging English through Milton's Paradise Lost. Only educated speakers would come even close to even understand properly that level of language, let alone construct it.

Of course that's just speculation on my part but given that modern Romance lost the case system almost entirely it seems like there wasn't a lot of friction here. If common Vulgar Latin speakers really valued word shuffling surely they'd have found a way to maintain the cases I'm sure. I could also point out that in Russian (a language I've been studying a lot lately) it's very easy to build a sentence that seems grammatically right but sounds off to a native speaker. For instance Russian speakers tend to prefer to put locative expressions at the beginning on the sentence, so they say "on the table is the fork" instead of "the fork is on the table" which may sound slanted or putting emphasis on a different part of the sentence.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#159
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. > The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: I have the pleasure to experience this freedom on word order in my native language (Portuguese) and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). [1] Although Portuguese presents thi…

> and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). Smagu matyti, kai nelietuviai mokosi lietuvių kalbos. Sėkmės!

Ačiū! Aš pradėjau mokytis lietuvių kalbą todėl šeimos priežasčių.

Dabar, aš mokausi todėl, kad tai man yra viena iš gražaisių kalbų pasaulyje: kaip tai gražiai garsa, koks ekspressiva lietuvių kalba yra ir kiek įdomios knygos parašytos lietuviškai! :)

Oh, feel free to correct my mistakes! :D

Re: In Defense of Latin

#160
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any scientific or objective way to measure how "expressive" a language is?

To provide just a glimpse of how expressive Lithuanian can be, just a some derivations from the verb valgyti (to eat): valgąs — present active participle valgęs — past active participle valgydavęs — frequentative past active participle valgysiąs — future active participle valgomas — present passive participle valgytas — past passive participle valgysimas — future passive participle valgant — adverbial present active…

All of those, which can be applied to prefixed verbs [1], such as the ones below derived from the verb "valgyti" (to eat) [2]:

antsivalgyti - (with genitive) to eat one's fill (of); to fill up (on)

apvalgyti - (with accusative) to eat (someone) out of house and home

įvalgyti - to be able to eat up; to be able to consume

išvalgyti - to eat up; to devour; to eat away

pravalgyti - to spend (one's money) on food

privalgyti - to eat one's fill

suvalgyti - to eat up; to consume

užvalgyti - to eat a snack

[1]: http://www.lituanus.org/1991_4/91_4_06.htm

[2]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/valgyti#Derived_terms

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