Live data from Hacker News

In Defense of Latin

lithub.com

31–40 of 199 posts

Re: In Defense of Latin

#31
post #2

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that, together with other grammatical features, gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: It allows you to express the content in such a way that the way you express it matches the content. For example, consider the verses: Daedalus…

> Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. > The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: I have the pleasure to experience this freedom on word order in my native language (Portuguese) and the one I am currently learning (Lithuanian). [1] Although Portuguese presents thi…

Is there any scientific or objective way to measure how "expressive" a language is?

Re: In Defense of Latin

#32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and it is a key characteristic of a skillful translator that such features are kept in the translation. This translation is very nice, but notice for example that the word "long" is itself now no longer long in the translation ("longumque" is longer, both syntactically and also when spoken, and that is made possible in Latin by the suffix "-que" that can be attached to words to mean "and"). Also, many passages c…

I just tried a quick translation now looking up the latin dictionary. My native tongue is Portuguese so maybe I'm more used to uncommonly ordered sentences. My English vocabulary is limited, I had to lookup a better synonym for "long": Daedalus, meanwhile, on Crete's lingering detested exile, longing for his birthplace

lingering brings other ideas besides "long". something like "fading but still there". does not seem appropriate for the text

Re: In Defense of Latin

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to suggest the blame lies the other way around: some of the more stupid, ugly and arbitrary grammatical quirks which ought to be dropped from the English language or made optional and context sensitive persist only because they act as a means to identify the writer is a native speaker and/or sufficiently highly educated.

The interesting part of that to me, too, is how many of them roundabout derive from eras where erudite and highly educated English speakers were forced to learn Latin as well, and in so doing apply Latin grammar rules to English that don't apply to natural English. The most obvious example being "never end a sentence with a preposition", which is a very clear grammar violation in Latin, but natural English has ended…

"never end a sentence with a preposition" is not a grammatical feature of English (from a scientific perspective where "English" is what we observe as being spoken by the community of native speakers, as opposed to something grammar books invented), and does not serve to distinguish native from non-native English speakers, at all.

I don't think this was the sort of thing GP was thinking of.

Edit: I didn't even intend for the previous sentence to be an example of a native English speaker producing sentences that end with prepositions, but by happy coincidence it is.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#34
post #14
post #2

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that, together with other grammatical features, gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: It allows you to express the content in such a way that the way you express it matches the content. For example, consider the verses: Daedalus…

I don't remember enough Latin to find the passage, but I recall reading the Aeneid in college and being amazed by the scene where Laocoön is killed by the serpents. Virgil weaves the description of the serpents and the struggling man together, so the words pertaining to the snakes are constricting those pertaining to the man.

Book 2 around line 215.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...

    Laocoonta petunt; et primum parua duorum
    corpora natorum serpens amplexus uterque
    implicat et miseros morsu depascitur artus; 215
    post ipsum auxilio subeuntem ac tela ferentem
    corripiunt spirisque ligant ingentibus; et iam
    bis medium amplexi, bis collo squamea circum
    terga dati superant capite et ceruicibus altis.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#35
post #2

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know. The reason is that the grammar is so developed that the word order is essentially arbitrary, and that, together with other grammatical features, gives rise to a method I have not seen so fully realized in any other language: It allows you to express the content in such a way that the way you express it matches the content. For example, consider the verses: Daedalus…

Latin is the most powerful natural language I know.

The key phrase is "I know". Latin is not the only one.

As much as you may like this feature, being inflected marks marks Latin as a primitive language, not a sophisticated one. The reason is that it is easy for a language to lose grammatical rules, but very hard to gain them. By this measure French is more modern than Latin because it is no longer inflected, and English is more modern than French because it has lost gender.

In a real sense, Chinese is the direction that all languages are heading. In English we still conjugate differently depending on how many, past/present/future, and so on. These are all vestiges of an inflected past. Chinese doesn't do that.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just tried a quick translation now looking up the latin dictionary. My native tongue is Portuguese so maybe I'm more used to uncommonly ordered sentences. My English vocabulary is limited, I had to lookup a better synonym for "long": Daedalus, meanwhile, on Crete's lingering detested exile, longing for his birthplace

lingering brings other ideas besides "long". something like "fading but still there". does not seem appropriate for the text

Doesn't "lingering" have a connotation of "lasting longer than it should" when associated with a negative aspect?

E.g. "lingering pain", "lingering stench".

Re: In Defense of Latin

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose one could argue that the people who come to English as a world language are not that great at the language, and thus they are not capable of helping it improve. (this is however belied by evidence that often those authors who have most helped English develop have been at the periphery of the culture) I often see something that could inspire this argument when I travel, people have made a native and English…

I'm inclined to suggest the blame lies the other way around: some of the more stupid, ugly and arbitrary grammatical quirks which ought to be dropped from the English language or made optional and context sensitive persist only because they act as a means to identify the writer is a native speaker and/or sufficiently highly educated.

Many years ago there was an article in the Economist about the global ubiquity of English. Apart from the political history of the British Empire and American hegemony, one of the broad reasons for its success was that no one really cares if you speak it poorly.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#38

Hillaire Belloc made the interesting claim that it was thanks to Latin that the various European languages were able to develop so freely: you could always communicate in Latin when you traveled. He also noted that the various lingua francas since Latin was lost have tended to suffer from becoming the world language. Looking at English today one is hard pressed to disagree.

How has English suffered from becoming the world language? I don't see it.

Euro English is one example I can think of. The semantic shifts can make the language more ambiguous when used between different groups of speakers.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#39
In my 50-year career in IT, I have noticed a positive correlation between success and skill at analysis, and training in Latin.

I was forced to study Latin for six years (plus two years of classical Greek τα ζωα τρεχει). I was not interested at the time, and did not fully benefit from the discipline that was imposed on me. I wish I had paid more attention.

Re: In Defense of Latin

#40
> When we study Latin, we must study it for one fundamental reason: because it is the language of a civilization; because the Western world was created on its back.

I think Greek fits this bill much better. Archimedes spoke Greek; Marcellus spoke Latin. Plato and the scholarchs spoke Greek; Sulla, who burned the Academy, spoke Latin. Euclid, Ptolemy, Chyrippus, and Eratosthenes spoke Greek. The intellectual achievements of the Romans were, by contrast, as pitiful as their military conquests were amazing. Even the Roman Empire eventually switched to Greek, which is why the oldest surviving copies of many Christian texts are in Greek, not Latin. (Perhaps the originals were even written in Greek.) When the lost knowledge of the ancient philosophers was translated from Arabic into a Western language, that language was, in large part, Greek; Μανουήλ Βρυέννιος and Θεόδωρος Μετοχίτης, to which we can trace the mathematical genealogy of Gauss and Euler, lived in Constantinople (the capital of the Roman Empire) and spoke Greek.

And of course if we're interested in fecundity

> Dante would never have composed his Divine Comedy without the model of the Aeneid, nor Milton his Paradise Lost

obviously the Greek Homer sang in is considerably more fecund, because the Aeneid is explicitly a fanfic of the Iliad; and Livy was explicitly imitating Herodotus, and Cicero the Athenian rhetors.

More generally, the Renaissance Gardini wishes to flatter owes at least as much directly to Greek texts, both from ancient Athens and from Byzantium, as it does to Latin texts. Gardini's attribution of the Renaissance to a revival of exclusively Latin culture is simply wrong. His complete omission of the importance of Classical Greek influence in the Renaissance is so glaring as to call his integrity into question.

So why, then, was Latin an important academic language 400 years after Μανουήλ Βρυέννιος? Because of the Roman Catholic Church, which was the only refuge of learning remaining in the violent, brutal, ignorant society of medieval Western Europe until the Reformation; and because, after the fall of the Caliphate, the Islamic world, which had been such a light of knowledge throughout that darkest of ages, also succumbed to persecution of scholars and extinguishment of wisdom. China and India had their own remarkable advancements, but they were too far away to correspond much with European scholars.

So Latin filled the role in Europe that Classical Chinese filled throughout the East, being the language of scholarship and culture, permitting the invisible college to transcend the pathetic national borders of the petty thugs that call themselves princes and nobles. The great universities of Europe mostly arose as seminaries, and for centuries all theses were published in Latin. This continued to some extent up to the 20th century: a couple of months ago, I was reading an anthropology paper published around 1910 about folktales of the Native American Ute tribe, and at the point where Coyote and Lizard start having sex, the paper abruptly switches from English to Latin for a couple of pages, perhaps to evade the Comstock Act prohibition on distributing obscene materials through the mails.

I think studying Latin is worthwhile in order to understand that history, and there's a lot of it. But it's not because Western Civilization was built by Rome; on the contrary, Western Civilization barely survived being conquered by Rome, largely thanks to the Muslims.

Post reply on HN