Live data from Hacker News

USS Pueblo

en.wikipedia.org

61–70 of 118 posts

Re: USS Pueblo

#61
post #52

I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters. All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super po…

My favorite in particular in this line of "geopolitical I'm not touching you" is what we call "freedom of navigation exercises". The US runs through the South China Sea on them all the time. Basically, China says it's their territory, the US says it is international waters. And so we "prove" it by regularly traveling through it with US warships for no other purpose then to prove we can.

Yup. How else can you stop Chinese colonialism?

Re: USS Pueblo

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on their spelling of “armoury” they don’t seem to be American. As far as I’m aware, the only country that forbids travel to NK is America.

I imagine the DPRK classifies all Americans and Europeans as simply "Western imperialist dogs", or something like that. The last thing I'd be worried about when planning a trip to Pyongyang is whether the US is cool with it. I would go to nearly any other country than go to North Korea. Just doesn't seem worth it. Wouldn't feel right putting my tourist $$$ directly in the pocket of the fascist Kim regime, for that.

> I imagine the DPRK classifies all Americans and Europeans as simply "Western imperialist dogs", or something like that.

They classify them as people that will pay good money to be taken on a Disneyland tour through their Potemkin villages.

Re: USS Pueblo

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

>I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST

How do you feel about educating the future hackers in the North Korean military? You almost certainly contributed to their ability to wage cyberwarfare.

Re: USS Pueblo

#64
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the same. The Russians have incursions into our airspace and we do similarly to them. We don’t call those “invasions”. An invasion is more physical in terms of control. When you invade you’re attempting to control an area with troops some time accompanied by non local pop. An incursion may result in extrication, surveillance or reconnaissance, those sorts of things.

> We don’t call those “invasions”. Yes, but that's about politics and emotional connotation, not denotation.

I don’t think so. Someone can accidentally veer into sovereign waters and or air, sometimes land. There is no intention to establish foothold or control. Those are incursions, even when intentional.

Invasion is quite involved and usually requires troops to establish foothold and perhaps control over an area. We, the US invaded Grenada, even if it was just momentary. We established control, sent armed troops, etc. Flying reconnaissance over Havana is an incursion but not an invasion.

Re: USS Pueblo

#65

I have been on the USS Pueblo. When I was in North Korea, this was one of the many military monuments that foreign visitors were required to tour when visiting the country. The guides who took us on this boat made sure to emphasize how this was an armed warship that was committing an act of international aggression and violating a sovereign nation's borders, and which was captured by an heroic North Korean military m…

What nationality are you and when did you visit N. Korea?

Re: USS Pueblo

#66

I have been on the USS Pueblo. When I was in North Korea, this was one of the many military monuments that foreign visitors were required to tour when visiting the country. The guides who took us on this boat made sure to emphasize how this was an armed warship that was committing an act of international aggression and violating a sovereign nation's borders, and which was captured by an heroic North Korean military m…

What nationality are you and when did you visit N. Korea?

I visited in 2011 as a South African citizen. I'm now an American citizen.

Re: USS Pueblo

#67
Another interesting incident, this one involving a North Korean spy ship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amami-Ōshima

The wreckage is worth a visit if you find yourself in Tokyo with a day to spare for a trip to Yokohama. (Half a day will do easily if that's literally all you go to Yokohama for, but you can spend a pleasant few hours there, so may as well make a day of it.)

Re: USS Pueblo

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were children of the elites of the country. Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and intelligence gathering in the west. I'd bet within a few miles of the experien…

> Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were children of the elites of the country.

My assessment is different.

I currently teach at an "elite" US college (liberal arts college ranked top-5 nationally with more than 20% of students having parents in the top 1% income bracket) and previously taught at a mid-ranked UC school. My impression is that the student demographics at PUST more closely resemble the mid-ranked UC school than the elite liberal arts school. The elite students in the DPRK tend to prefer their version of elite colleges like Kim Il Sung and Kim Chaek universities. For example, students from these other universities are regularly lauded in national newspapers for their achievements (which exceed those of PUST students), but PUST students have never been mentioned in a national newspaper as far as I am aware. My understanding is that students at these other universities have similar levels of internet access as students at PUST, but they do not have regular in person contact with westerners.

> Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and intelligence gathering in the west.

As someone who has professional experience running/developing cyberwarfare and nuclear military operations with the US military, I can unequivocally state that the work I did at PUST was not developing these capabilities for North Korea.

Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational exchanges are a great way to improve relations between the US and DPRK building on the model of how educational exchanges improved relations between the US and USSR. See for example https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-university-and-nk-...

> I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were families starving in substandard housing.

One of the major goals of the PUST project is to help improve and internationalize the North Korean economy. The longterm effect will be to improve the standard of living of all North Koreans.

Re: USS Pueblo

#69
post #52

I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters. All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super po…

> Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters.

Like they did the USS Liberty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

Re: USS Pueblo

#70
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

>I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST How do you feel about educating the future hackers in the North Korean military? You almost certainly contributed to their ability to wage cyberwarfare.

As someone who has professional experience running/developing cyberwarfare and nuclear military operations with the US military, I can unequivocally state that the work I did at PUST was not developing these capabilities for North Korea.

Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational exchanges are a great way to improve relations between the US and DPRK, building on the model of how educational exchanges improved relations between the US and USSR. See for example https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-university-and-nk-...

Post reply on HN