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USS Pueblo

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Re: USS Pueblo

#21

Post by jackpirate »

daveslash wrote: post #5
ruddct wrote: post #4

Hah, fun! Visited this a few years back. It's in great condition, particularly memorable things were the bullet holes (all highlighted in red paint) and the intro video[0], which is worth watching if only to experience the extremely distinct North Korean English accent. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (https://pust.co) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens.

I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them google maps images of Pyongyang (which they hadn't seen from space before), talking about Snowden and how he used encryption to hide from the NSA, and having North Korean citizens contribute to open source machine learning projects (vowpal wabbit and mlpack). All the students I met with were also surprisingly well informed about both events in the US and American history.

You also get to do as much touristy stuff as you'd like. Two highlights for me were, visiting the Pueblo and the subway system. As a former naval nuclear officer, it was quite surreal to visit these places. The subway system is one of the few places in the world that US nuclear weapons cannot effectively target because it is buried so far underground (>100m). You have to spend about 5 minutes riding the longest escalator I've ever seen to get from the surface to the trains. It's a daily reminder to North Korean citizens that they've been targeted by US nuclear weapons for decades.

Educational exchanges have a long history of improving relations between countries, and so I'm a huge advocate for the PUST exchanges. Unfortunately, I had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit North Korea. If any non-Americans are interested in going, however, shoot me an email (mike@izbicki.me) and I'm happy to chat more with you about the experience.

Re: USS Pueblo

#22

Post by slg »

>the U.S. government has publicly stated on several occasions that the return of the still commissioned Navy vessel is a priority

Is this just to save face or is there some other reason we would want the ship back?

Re: USS Pueblo

#23

Post by holtalanm »

chimeracoder wrote: post #15
mc32 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The boat? Not much. It’s the act that offers value.

> The boat? Not much. It’s the act that offers value. The value of invading another sovereign nation's territory in order to repatriate some hunk object that has purely symbolic value? Hardly seems worth the cost and massive fallout that would ensure.

you mean the boat that was illegally seized during the cold war, and still is illegally held?

Re: USS Pueblo

#24

Post by devicetray0 »

jackpirate wrote: post #21
daveslash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

> All the students I met with were surprisingly well informed about both events in the US and American history.

This is surprising to me. I imagine they read some news/propaganda about the events, rather than reading the NYTimes, WAPO, or BBC news directly. Can you comment on that?

> As a former naval nuclear officer

Did you have to get special approval?

Re: USS Pueblo

#25

Post by OldFatCactus »

pc86 wrote: post #14
OldFatCactus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this come up a lot recently. Antisemitic, alt-right grifters have been using this incident as some sort of dogwhistle

Dogwhistle for what? I'm genuinely curious, I don't know what that could be used as a dogwhistle for.

If I'm being charitable, anti-Israel sentiment. The conspiracy theory is that Israel did it deliberately

Re: USS Pueblo

#26

Post by parliament32 »

>While thousands of American prisoners of war were awarded medals, the crew members of Pueblo did not receive them. Instead, they were classified as "detainees". It was not until Congress passed a law overturning this decision that the medals were awarded; the crew finally received the medals at San Diego in May 1990.

Any thoughts on why this was so? Why would the crew not be classified PoWs? Did the US not want to admit they were in a war with PRK or what?

Re: USS Pueblo

#27

Post by freehunter »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #18
02thoeva wrote: post #3

Visited this last year, remarkably good condition. The Koreans were very keen to point out the size of the armoury and guns on board the ship.

You visited North Korea?

Based on their spelling of “armoury” they don’t seem to be American. As far as I’m aware, the only country that forbids travel to NK is America.

Re: USS Pueblo

#28

Post by ruddct »

daveslash wrote: post #5
ruddct wrote: post #4

Hah, fun! Visited this a few years back. It's in great condition, particularly memorable things were the bullet holes (all highlighted in red paint) and the intro video[0], which is worth watching if only to experience the extremely distinct North Korean English accent. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

I went when Americans were still allowed to go, with Koryo Tours, who I'd recommend strongly. As the only way to get in is with a tour agency, it's actually a very easy trip to arrange. All you have to do is get to Beijing, the agency takes care of the rest.

That said, I wouldn't call it an easy destination while you're there, depending on your personality type. You have no freedom of movement, are pretty transparently being used for domestic propaganda purposes, and you're with your NK tour guides 100% of the time (and they're very vocal about their distaste for America/Americans, even if they're friendly to you directly). If you're the kind of person who can't follow rules, or if you get vocal/aggressive/unpredictable (particularly when drinking), it is not the destination for you. Most (but not all) of the foreigners who've been detained in NK did something dumb while there that resulted in detainment; if you can imagine yourself acting similarly dumb, don't go.

That said, I had a great time, loved the group I ended up with, and saw a part of the world that few else have. I'd go back in a heartbeat as soon as the political climate between the US/NK changes for the better.

Re: USS Pueblo

#29

Post by slg »

pc86 wrote: post #14
OldFatCactus wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this come up a lot recently. Antisemitic, alt-right grifters have been using this incident as some sort of dogwhistle

Dogwhistle for what? I'm genuinely curious, I don't know what that could be used as a dogwhistle for.

The Liberty is a common antisemitic talking point. It is an incident in which the Israeli military attacked and killed American troops. Both the deliberateness and the potential motive of the attack are unknown and unexplained. It doesn't take much for the conspiracy theorists to turn that into "Jews want to kill Americans".

Re: USS Pueblo

#30

Post by BitwiseFool »

slg wrote: post #22

>the U.S. government has publicly stated on several occasions that the return of the still commissioned Navy vessel is a priority Is this just to save face or is there some other reason we would want the ship back?

I imagine it's an esprit de corps goal related to the 'no man left behind' sentiment in the armed forces.
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