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USS Pueblo

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Re: USS Pueblo

#51

Post by ceejayoz »

peeters wrote: post #48

As interesting as the vessel is the noncompliance of the crew in being used as propaganda: > This treatment turned worse when the North Koreans realized that crewmen were secretly giving them "the finger" in staged propaganda photos. and > Eventually the North Koreans threatened to execute his men in front of him, and Bucher relented and agreed to "confess to his and the crew's transgression." Bucher wrote the confes…

I find tales of POWs resisting where they can fascinating.

One of my favourites is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Hegdahl:

He got blown overboard by a gun turret's blast, a story which his interrogators found so unbelievable they assumed he was an idiot and gave him free run of the POW camp, which he used to gather intel and sabotage vehicles.

Re: USS Pueblo

#52

Post by chimi »

I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters.

All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super powers.

It's like a geopolitical "I'm not touching you." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgXDYiHhp5Y

It's bullying behavior. It's an aggressive provocation.

Will we ever grow up?

Re: USS Pueblo

#53

Post by nyolfen »

slg wrote: post #29
pc86 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogwhistle for what? I'm genuinely curious, I don't know what that could be used as a dogwhistle for.

The Liberty is a common antisemitic talking point. It is an incident in which the Israeli military attacked and killed American troops. Both the deliberateness and the potential motive of the attack are unknown and unexplained. It doesn't take much for the conspiracy theorists to turn that into "Jews want to kill Americans".

the idea is that it was a false flag attack to lure the US into intervening in the 6 day war on behalf of israel; its appeal to antisemites, sympathists of liberty sailors, american opponents of israel, or even just trolls should be pretty obvious

Re: USS Pueblo

#54

Post by Accujack »

jackpirate wrote: post #21
daveslash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were children of the elites of the country.

Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and intelligence gathering in the west.

I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were families starving in substandard housing.

Re: USS Pueblo

#55

Post by pvg »

parliament32 wrote: post #26

>While thousands of American prisoners of war were awarded medals, the crew members of Pueblo did not receive them. Instead, they were classified as "detainees". It was not until Congress passed a law overturning this decision that the medals were awarded; the crew finally received the medals at San Diego in May 1990. Any thoughts on why this was so? Why would the crew not be classified PoWs? Did the US not want to a…

There was considerable controversy surrounding the events and the actions of the crew and leadership. There was a Navy court of inquiry, conflicting accusations of dereliction of duty, cover-ups, whitewashing, official reprimands, etc. Google up 'Pueblo court of inquiry' but keep in mind it's a massive, contentious and inconclusive clickhole.

Re: USS Pueblo

#56

Post by InertiaNetwork »

daveslash wrote: post #5
ruddct wrote: post #4

Hah, fun! Visited this a few years back. It's in great condition, particularly memorable things were the bullet holes (all highlighted in red paint) and the intro video[0], which is worth watching if only to experience the extremely distinct North Korean English accent. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95qtd2Mwnpg

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

You can't enter the country anymore with a US passport, but you certainly still can if you're a dual citizen.

Many tour operators regularly take people into North Korea to see guided tours. Keep in mind though, these are highly structured tours that are designed to keep you in line and only see certain things. You will be extremely safe while in the country, it's basically like a giant airport. Play in the boundaries and you're fine. Tens of thousands of tourists go there annually.

I am actually running a Hockey tournament in Pyongyang as a way to bridge the gap if anybody is interested. Unlike most tour operators, because we operate directly through the Ministry of Sports, we get a lot more liberties that you typically do not get through a regular tour agency that is only looking to provide to provide a cut and dry experience.

https://inertianetwork.com/pyongyang-cup

Re: USS Pueblo

#57

Post by dragonwriter »

mc32 wrote: post #42
chimeracoder wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First it’s not an invasion, it’s an incursion. This is a really weird hair to try to split, given that the two words are essentially synonymous. > When an army crosses a border into another country for battle, they are making an incursion into enemy territory. An incursion is an invasion as well as an attack. [0] > [An incursion is] An aggressive movement into somewhere; an invasion[1] > Invasion is a synonym for i…

They are not the same. The Russians have incursions into our airspace and we do similarly to them. We don’t call those “invasions”. An invasion is more physical in terms of control. When you invade you’re attempting to control an area with troops some time accompanied by non local pop. An incursion may result in extrication, surveillance or reconnaissance, those sorts of things.

> We don’t call those “invasions”.

Yes, but that's about politics and emotional connotation, not denotation.

Re: USS Pueblo

#58

Post by ocdtrekkie »

chimi wrote: post #52

I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters. All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super po…

My favorite in particular in this line of "geopolitical I'm not touching you" is what we call "freedom of navigation exercises". The US runs through the South China Sea on them all the time.

Basically, China says it's their territory, the US says it is international waters. And so we "prove" it by regularly traveling through it with US warships for no other purpose then to prove we can.

Re: USS Pueblo

#59

Post by excalibur »

chimi wrote: post #52

I always wonder about claims like this where one nation says a ship was within their borders and the other nation says it was in international waters. This USS Pueblo is one incident. Israel attacked a Turkish ship in international waters. Iran attacked oil tankers in international waters. All these incidents ... I can't help but think we never grow up as human beings all the way until becoming international super po…

Or like the US and Russia always intercepting each other's aircraft. When reported in the media there's often a lot of bellyaching, i.e. "we were just minding our own business flying in international airspace, and then they showed up and intercepted, and they were so rude!" Like, maybe if you hadn't been flying your bombers or your spy planes 13 nautical miles from their coast they would be a bit friendlier. Nobody buys your "poor me" bullshit when it's clearly an example of a defensive response to an aggressive provocation.

Re: USS Pueblo

#60

Post by cycrutchfield »

jackpirate wrote: post #21
daveslash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology ( https://pust.co ) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens. I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them goo…

> Unfortunately, I had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit North Korea.

Not that I am particularly fond of taking Trump’s side on anything, but I think this is a fairly reasonable policy given North Korea’s tendency to kidnap Americans and use them as leverage in negotiations.

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