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Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

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191–200 of 288 posts

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make reference to protecting mass transit as well as to the cost to consumers. These arguments make sense if there are zero externalities, but unfortunately there are: carbon footprint, both directly as well as second order effects from increased congestion, commercial exploitation of subsidized infrastructure, increased collision risk to cyclists and vulnerable road users, abuse of contract law by preventing ind…

Regulation is what made taxis so terrible. We don't need the government to control everything. Many of the externalities you describe would be the same if people just drove their own cars. If ridesharing is so bad then govt should invest in proper public transport to create more choice, not try and crush a valuable service used by millions.

> Many of the externalities you describe would be the same if people just drove their own cars.

no, this isn't correct and on its face looks like a straw man, so i'm pretty sure you're arguing in bad faith, but i'll try to give someone of the "market" mindset a market argument.

market zealots tell us that as things become cheaper, people do more of them. subsidizing ride sharing, evading regulations, etc. generally made ride sharing become a cheaper alternative to taxis. as a result, it suddenly became generally affordable for well off people to "ride share" around everywhere as a manner of commuting. this very likely led to more congestion than a world without ride sharing would have.

that some of these well off individuals could have done the same in private cars is not really relevant. ride sharing became so economical that bus riders, pedestrians and cyclists changed their behavior to make use of it. this isn't controversial - there's at least one study from SF that found this; i'm guessing other municipalities have found the same.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read, they often don't make enough to even cover their increased vehicle expenses. And then there's insurance exposure. Also, TFA notes that classification of drivers as employees would increase costs by over 20%. If that's true, someone here is getting screwed. Drivers, governments, or both. But still, I value freedom highly. So I do get the argument that people ought to have the right to work how the…

Articles are a poor source. The drivers wouldn't be driving if they weren't making any money. I've taken thousands of rides and discussed Uber with about 90% of my drivers. While they all would like to make more money (who wouldn't?), they all make a profit and enjoy the flexibility the most.

Are they pricing in vehicle wear and other long-term expenses? Many people only think of gas and other short-term expenses when they calculate vehicle cost-per-mile.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#193
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is almost double the amount cited above, estimated to be $241,000,000,000. https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-241b-pension-debt-st...

IPI is the Cato institute of Illinois. Consistent track record of putting conservative talking points above facts.

While that may be true, the governments have a consistent track record of using assumption that understate pension costs and a track record of underfunding the pensions. History has shown that one would be more accurate if they erred on the side that calculated higher costs, especially since they can kick the can down the road for so long.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#194
post #24

There's no escaping this from states like NJ, CA, IL, MA, and NY. These states (of which I am a member of) are broke with pension obligations waiting to bankrupt the government. Taxes are already high both on income and property so there's nowhere to go there. They have old infrastructures and although the citizens are heavily taxed, government can't make improvements in large part because of lifetime pension obligat…

Do you have some numbers to share to support the hypothesis that pension plans will bankrupt these states without new taxes?

https://burypensions.wordpress.com

The states won't be bankrupted. Just a greater and greater portion of tax revenue will go towards paying for debt, which means less for investments for the future, so current and future taxpayers will take a hit to quality of life compared to better managed states (all else being equal).

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#195
post #24

There's no escaping this from states like NJ, CA, IL, MA, and NY. These states (of which I am a member of) are broke with pension obligations waiting to bankrupt the government. Taxes are already high both on income and property so there's nowhere to go there. They have old infrastructures and although the citizens are heavily taxed, government can't make improvements in large part because of lifetime pension obligat…

No, sharing economy companies are breaking the law in interesting and creative ways and it has simply taken the states some time to catch up. That those states also have a pension obligation has nothing to do with them collecting taxes on corporations active in their territory.

Seriously. These corporations come up with all kinds of ways to not pay taxes and then people try to find a fault in the government or the system. Yet, when the government comes back to acquire those taxes, it’s still the government’s fault?

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulation is what made taxis so terrible. We don't need the government to control everything. Many of the externalities you describe would be the same if people just drove their own cars. If ridesharing is so bad then govt should invest in proper public transport to create more choice, not try and crush a valuable service used by millions.

> Many of the externalities you describe would be the same if people just drove their own cars. no, this isn't correct and on its face looks like a straw man, so i'm pretty sure you're arguing in bad faith, but i'll try to give someone of the "market" mindset a market argument. market zealots tell us that as things become cheaper, people do more of them. subsidizing ride sharing, evading regulations, etc. generally m…

This is such a bullshit argument. What you're basically saying is people wouldn't have driven their cars and stayed at Home if Uber wasn't a thing. That's such an inane argument. Ridesharing is good and reduces overall traffic. It doesn't make people go out more than they require. No one says "it's a good day to Uber today ".

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Articles are a poor source. The drivers wouldn't be driving if they weren't making any money. I've taken thousands of rides and discussed Uber with about 90% of my drivers. While they all would like to make more money (who wouldn't?), they all make a profit and enjoy the flexibility the most.

Are they pricing in vehicle wear and other long-term expenses? Many people only think of gas and other short-term expenses when they calculate vehicle cost-per-mile.

That's on them and not Uber to calculate and make the choice.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#198

I am really curious how they arrived at any of the numbers in this article. Seriously, what other large employers make it to hundred plus million per year? Are they just up and deciding that anyone who did one trip is now an employee? Is there a source that shows how much each company pays per year in this state? who else is equivalent? this isn't about protecting the drivers, this is about protecting the taxi indust…

You make reference to protecting mass transit as well as to the cost to consumers. These arguments make sense if there are zero externalities, but unfortunately there are: carbon footprint, both directly as well as second order effects from increased congestion, commercial exploitation of subsidized infrastructure, increased collision risk to cyclists and vulnerable road users, abuse of contract law by preventing ind…

Taking drunks off the road, providing carpooling options, reducing need for parking, making it possible for for people to not need cars who are on the fence about buying one, frictionless payment options over cash, eliminating "zoning" by different cab entities that block off under-served neighborhoods. There are plenty of positive externalities to Uber too. I don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember when cabs sucked and you dreaded it or considered risking just driving yourself after a night out. Uber made things easier, better, and safer.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#199
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why people think that drivers for Uber & Lyft shouldn't be treated as "contractors". I know I'm in the minority on this, but to me it seems that you can jump in and out of employment with Uber & Lyft quite easily, to the point that it does seem more like contract work. As an anecdote, I took a Lyft to the airport with someone who had stopped driving for 6 months in order to get started with a new full ti…

Contractors can set their own rates. These drivers are employees.

Your conclusion presupposes that the employee/contractor dichotomy is a useful construct in its typical form.

But the current dichotomy limits the freedom of individuals to contract out their labor on terms that work form them. It replaces the free choice of individuals with the "wisdom" of bureaucrats and politicians.

Re: Uber Hit with $650M Employment Tax Bill in New Jersey

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make reference to protecting mass transit as well as to the cost to consumers. These arguments make sense if there are zero externalities, but unfortunately there are: carbon footprint, both directly as well as second order effects from increased congestion, commercial exploitation of subsidized infrastructure, increased collision risk to cyclists and vulnerable road users, abuse of contract law by preventing ind…

Taking drunks off the road, providing carpooling options, reducing need for parking, making it possible for for people to not need cars who are on the fence about buying one, frictionless payment options over cash, eliminating "zoning" by different cab entities that block off under-served neighborhoods. There are plenty of positive externalities to Uber too. I don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember when…

> Uber made things easier, better, and safer.

Are you seriously suggesting that an entity could have both positive and negative effects? That's unpossible!

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