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Views from an Egyptian

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Re: Views from an Egyptian

#61

Post by yummyfajitas »

emit_time_n3rgy wrote: post #58
yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

Egypt is #4 recipient of US foreign aid after Afghan, Iraq, and Israel according to that pdf..

My mistake, my eyes glossed over Afghanistan.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#62

Post by aaronbrethorst »

jacquesm wrote: post #46
hvs wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's called Realpolitik and, for better or worse (usually worse), it's generally the basis of American foreign policy. That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.

Realpolitik got you Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bin Laden, 9/11, Noriega and a whole slew of other problems. Makes you wonder if it is really worth it.

The Iraq debacle (2003-) was something different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#63

Post by jacquesm »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #62
jacquesm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Realpolitik got you Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bin Laden, 9/11, Noriega and a whole slew of other problems. Makes you wonder if it is really worth it.

The Iraq debacle (2003-) was something different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

That was a bit later, before then we had this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_...

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#64

Post by aaronbrethorst »

jacquesm wrote: post #63
aaronbrethorst wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Iraq debacle (2003-) was something different: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

That was a bit later, before then we had this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_...

hence the "(2003-)", although arguably it'd be more correct to say "(2003-2009)"

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#65

Post by jacquesm »

aaronbrethorst wrote: post #64
jacquesm wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a bit later, before then we had this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_...

hence the "(2003-)", although arguably it'd be more correct to say "(2003-2009)"

Ok. With Iraq in the list above I specifically meant the period when Saddam was being propped up by the US as an example of realpolitik, not the situation later on.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#66

Post by michaelkeenan »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

> Fun fact: Egypt is our #3 recipient of foreign aid...The US government gives Egypt $1.5 Billion every year.

The US government gives Egypt foreign aid because that is part of the agreement of the 1979 Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty[1], when Egypt became the first Arab country to officially recognize Israel.

I don't know enough about the overall situation to have an opinion, but it does seem at least plausible to me that buying peace with foreign aid might be a good thing (albeit a distasteful moral-hazard-prone good thing).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt%E2%80%93Israel_Peace_Trea...

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#67

Post by iujyhgftrgh »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

>Dear Egyptian Police and Military. The US government gives Egypt $1.5 Billion every year. That's what is paying your salary. If you want to get paid, just get out of the way.

And replace him with who ?

We had a nice pet leader in Iran once, he used to buy weapons and nuclear reactors from us. He did torture people and his secret police weren't terribly nice. Then he got overthrown and for some reason the people that replaced him didn't like us very much ( although we did still sell them weapons ).

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#68

Post by yummyfajitas »

jbooth wrote: post #56
InclinedPlane wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. People will make you think that Realpolitik is some hard-thinking, tough-decisions geopolitical chess game. But it's not, it's just international checkers, making the least bad decision at the last minute because you haven't planned ahead. It's a shame that it has infected American foreign policy for so long. Naive idealism is no better, but pragmatic idealism is far far better, but also far more difficult.

Yeah, if there's one thing I can't stand, it's hearing condescending "adult opinions" on things that have been colossally mismanaged for decades.

For perhaps the first time ever, I wholeheartedly agree with jbooth for two posts in a row.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#69

Post by baguasquirrel »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

FWIW, we were in opposition to Libya and Cuba for how long, and it didn't get us anywhere.

We need a real poli-sci explanation for why certain leaders are sticky, and why certain regions seem to have more than their fair share of despots.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#70

Post by yummyfajitas »

iujyhgftrgh wrote: post #67
yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

>Dear Egyptian Police and Military. The US government gives Egypt $1.5 Billion every year. That's what is paying your salary. If you want to get paid, just get out of the way. And replace him with who ? We had a nice pet leader in Iran once, he used to buy weapons and nuclear reactors from us. He did torture people and his secret police weren't terribly nice. Then he got overthrown and for some reason the people that…

And replace him with who ?

That's really up to the Egyptian people, no?

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