The OP mentions Muslim Brotherhood as the worthy opposition, but they don't appear as anything democratic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood "The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state""
Views from an Egyptian
31–40 of 77 posts
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#32Earlier quoted context omitted.
>> Gandhi: "Nonviolence is a weapon of the strong" Gandhi has a romantic allure to people in the west, but the reality is he won because the alternative was much worse. It was the end of the WW. The British were tired. And there were 100s of 1000s of Indian soldiers, just returned from years of fighting, who were ripe to be recruited by the radical elements in India. This was enough for the Brits to throw in the towe…
> You must get out and experience the real world. I'll bet you that I've seen more of 'the real world' than you have, from communist Poland before the wall fell to Colombia, and plenty of other places both in times of relative quiet and in times of unrest, living there, not holidaying. If I count the countries that I've visited I come to 22 countries on 3 continents, I've probably spent more time outside of the count…
No need to get into a pissing match. I've spent more than half of my life abroad too.
Do you really think people can just walk up to Gadhafi and say, "we protest peacefully, so please give us power"? Do you think Saddam could have been deposed peacefully by his people?
Since we geeks love to categorize and form patterns, I'll put this forward: the difference between the erstwhile empires (like the British, French, etc.) and these despots is that those empires weren't cults of personality; there wasn't 1 person brutalizing the public, like you have here (Ben Ali, Mubarak, and Gadhafi (who's shitting bricks right now)). So when the push comes to shove, the employees of the "empire" can walk away and allow for peaceful transition of power; but the servants of these despots are too closely tied to their masters (sometimes it is tribal loyalty), and don't go away quietly.
And finally: even though one may say that Gandhi's "revolution" was peaceful, don't forget the million people killed in the subsequent blood-letting known as the "Partition", where India and Pakistan were split from one.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#33"“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-Bi...
"The Egyptian government has an important opportunity to be responsive to the aspirations of the Egyptian people, and pursue political, economic and social reforms that can improve their lives and help Egypt prosper." - Hillary Clinton
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0126/The-US...
Wow, that's a really proportionate criticism.
Fun fact: Egypt is our #3 recipient of foreign aid.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s1298.p...
It would be great if Biden, instead of saying Mubarak is not a dictator, said something like this:
"Dear Egyptian Police and Military. The US government gives Egypt $1.5 Billion every year. That's what is paying your salary. If you want to get paid, just get out of the way."
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#34A quite interesting perspective: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/2011128...
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You must get out and experience the real world. I'll bet you that I've seen more of 'the real world' than you have, from communist Poland before the wall fell to Colombia, and plenty of other places both in times of relative quiet and in times of unrest, living there, not holidaying. If I count the countries that I've visited I come to 22 countries on 3 continents, I've probably spent more time outside of the count…
>> I'll bet you that I've seen more of 'the real world' than you have,... No need to get into a pissing match. I've spent more than half of my life abroad too. Do you really think people can just walk up to Gadhafi and say, "we protest peacefully, so please give us power"? Do you think Saddam could have been deposed peacefully by his people? Since we geeks love to categorize and form patterns, I'll put this forward:…
Agreed, so don't start them :)
> Do you really think people can just walk up to Gadhafi and say, "we protest peacefully, so please give us power"?
No, but I do think that if they cripple the country for an extended period that he'll find himself without a police force and an army to do his bidding. (see for instance Poland)
> Do you think Saddam could have been deposed peacefully by his people?
Saddam Himself would not have survived any turn but he did not have much foreign support, Mubarak on the other hand still has a lot of foreign support.
> Since we geeks love to categorize and form patterns, I'll put this forward: the difference between the erstwhile empires (like the British, French, etc.) and these despots is that those empires weren't cults of personality; there wasn't 1 person brutalizing the public, like you have here (Ben Ali, Mubarak, and Gadhafi (who's shitting bricks right now)). So when the push comes to shove, the employees of the "empire" can walk away and allow for peaceful transition of power; but the servants of these despots are too closely tied to their masters (sometimes it is tribal loyalty), and don't go away quietly.
I'm with you there, and I think that some blood will flow. But it had better be the right blood, to incite unarmed protesters to take on heavily armed riot police and military is a great way to get a lot of people killed and to go back to the status quo afterwards. Plenty of times this recipe has been tried and has failed plenty of times as well (it did occasionally succeed, but those were unfortunately the exceptions rather than the rule).
> And finally: even though one may say that Gandhi's "revolution" was peaceful, don't forget the million people killed in the subsequent blood-letting known as the "Partition", where India and Pakistan were split from one.
Yes, that was very ugly, and effectively it has not even stopped today, and I don't think it will stop in the foreseeable future.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#36A quite interesting perspective: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/2011128...
Edit: Actually I am completely baffled that the author of that article refers to these protests as "democracy movements." It seems like a very narcissistic assumption for Americans to make. These protests may be revolts against corrupt and repressive governments, but so was the revolution in Iran in 1979.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
> To break police torture, you MUST torture them. I hope you meant that in a figurative sense and not in a literal one, if you meant that literally then I'm sorry, but that's absolutely not the case. You break a bad regime by doing better, not by becoming like them. I sincerely hope that El Baradei will get his way and will be allowed to lead a transition government he seems like a decent fellow and has done a lot of…
>> Gandhi: "Nonviolence is a weapon of the strong" Gandhi has a romantic allure to people in the west, but the reality is he won because the alternative was much worse. It was the end of the WW. The British were tired. And there were 100s of 1000s of Indian soldiers, just returned from years of fighting, who were ripe to be recruited by the radical elements in India. This was enough for the Brits to throw in the towe…
And you are simply wrong about nonviolent revolutions in the face of dictatorship not working. There is a long list of successes - there would no doubt be more if nonviolence as a response to violence were simply tried more often. Certainly violence as a response to violence has had more than its share of horrors.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's Gandhi, not Ghandi. Sorry for nitpicking, but I hate to see the name mangled of someone I respect a lot.
Apologies, and it's not like I didn't know that, very sloppy of me. edited.
I have seen the wrong spelling used at many other places as well....not sure if they are always typos, or if some people are genuinely mistaken about the name.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#39This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…
That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.
Re: Views from an Egyptian
#40A quite interesting perspective: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/2011128...
I don't think words about democracy would have any bearing on protests in Egypt and elsewhere. Young people there are fed up with unemployment, corruption, and abuse of power. It may be obvious to us that the fix to those things is democracy, but not everybody agrees. It is not clear what the protesters want, even if those who speak for them speak of democracy. Do the protesters want a different form of government, o…