Mourning the End of Paper Maps • Hacker News Board

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#51

Post by altec3 » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:02 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #34

Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities. Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had. I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books. The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re-downloading all my books,…

I'll use my phone or paper maps depending on the situation.

- Backpacking for one night: Probably just phone (I use an app called Offline Topo Maps, works great).

- Backpacking for an extended amount of time: Paper

- Backpacking in winter/snow: Paper and Phone. (Only use the phone for when I'm not quite sure where I am)

- Motorcycle tour: Phone.

- Multiday rafting: Paper.

- Bicycle Tour: Phone and Paper.

- General Travel to a new place: Phone.

I feel as if one isn't necessarily better than the other, they both have their pros & cons for different activities.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#52

Post by altec3 » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #43

chrisseaton wrote: post #8

There is no way that digital maps are anywhere near as practical, let alone more practical, yet. Digital maps: * rely on precious battery charge and weight * aren't very robust * are extremely hard to use in the dark or with night vision * can't be cut and folded into something small and light enough to hold in a hand * when portable aren't large enough for displaying on a table or wall for people to gather around

Paper maps: * weight a lot more than digital * aren't robust to water, dirty, or even manipulation * require extra equipment to read on the dark * can be cut and folded, but lose usefulness on the process (I really don't get your claim that cell phones can't be hold in a hand) But that last point is spot on. Ditto for the people talking about writing on the map (digital could improve on this front). Anyway navigating…

The paper maps we use for multiday rafting trips are all waterproof. The thing will sit in the water in the bottom of your boat all day, then you throw it in the sand. It gets a little patina but has no problem with dirt/sand/water.

Totally agree that neither digital nor paper maps is a clear winner. Each use case has different requirements and sometimes digital is better and sometimes paper is.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#53

Post by r00fus » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:13 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #11

jacquesm wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was with you until the 'extremely hard to use in the dark or with night vision' because that is just about the only time they work much better than paper ones. But maps of all sorts are a dying breed, the bulk of the uses for maps were to find directions and turn-by-turn voice navigation has made the map component pretty much optional.

What displays do you use for in the dark? For paper you can shine a pin-point of green light and read it. That works for old-style LCD like a CASIO watch but I've not seen it work for a display designed to be backlit like a tablet. And you'd need a specially adapted display that used an IR backlight to use with night vision - I haven't seen something like that in practice. My smart watch has a night vision mode, but…

Are you in or simulating tactical conditions (to not give away your position)? If so - definitely paper + low intensity light. Otherwise, why is backlit an issue?

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#54

Post by techopoly » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:15 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #34

Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities. Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had. I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books. The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re-downloading all my books,…

I couldn't agree more. I keep maps in my vehicle for this reason, and people give me a hard time for it. No matter what I say I can't seem to get people to understand why it's still important to have maps.

Get out of cell phone service, which isn't uncommon in rural America...or lose the charge on your phone...and wind up on a winding country road...and see how well you can get yourself to civilization.

Two is one and one is none. With the way we depend on technology, it seems that society is always one power outage away from chaos.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#55

Post by JustSomeNobody » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:17 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #34

Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities. Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had. I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books. The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re-downloading all my books,…

When we travel by car, I always print out our route. There are long stretches of highway usually and I really don't want my phone on the whole time (especially at night). I'll jot notes on the paper about mileage and roughly what time I need to start looking for the next exit. I really only use the phone GPS when the destination gets close.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#56

Post by JustSomeNobody » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #44

marcosdumay wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paper maps: * weight a lot more than digital * aren't robust to water, dirty, or even manipulation * require extra equipment to read on the dark * can be cut and folded, but lose usefulness on the process (I really don't get your claim that cell phones can't be hold in a hand) But that last point is spot on. Ditto for the people talking about writing on the map (digital could improve on this front). Anyway navigating…

> aren't robust to water, dirty, or even manipulation You just laminate them.

And while they're at it, they should laminate their phone because it's not robust to water, dirt or even manipulation either.

I know, I know, IP ratings. Okay... good luck.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#57

Post by cneurotic » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:31 PM UTC

One advantage of paper maps, for me, is that they're much better at installing a 'model' for a city in your head.

With digital maps, I can navigate from place to place to place pretty easily. But then I retain virtually no information. I end up with no 'nose' for how to find my own way home.

But if I study a map on paper, laboriously plan my route in advance, and then follow it IRL — it's like magic. That route is installed there forever.

Do that enough times, and navigating even really crazy big cities starts to become instinctual. No GPS required.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#58

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #45

coldtea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What displays do you use for in the dark? For paper you can shine a pin-point of green light and read it. That works for old-style LCD like a CASIO watch but I've not seen it work for a display designed to be backlit like a tablet. Why do you need to shine light on a backlight? You can read it directly at night. > And you'd need a specially adapted display that used an IR backlight to use with night vision - I have…

> Why do you need to shine light on a backlight? You can read it directly at night. You can't use a backlight at night - you'd light yourself up like a beacon, and destroy your night vision adaptation.

If it's about reading the map while navigating through the night in unknown territory in some emergency situation (lost in the woods?), I'd see where that would be a problem.

Otherwise, I wouldn't go trekking/hiking at night either. Who does, so that that "map reading at night while maintaining night vision adaptation" to be a real non-outlier concern?

If the use case is reading a map at a campsite, e.g. to prepare for tomorrow's hike, then the "night vision adaptation" should not be that important, and a backlit map device would do just fine. And you can have the screen at low brightness and not mess (or not mess much) with your night vision adaptation.

Where do you napkin-estimate the percentage of people in the venn diagram AND of "uses maps", "need to read them at night", "need to maintain night vision adaptation while doing so", "has some night vision contraption to be able to read things they shine light on"?

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#59

Post by j8014 » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #38

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #34

Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities. Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had. I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books. The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re-downloading all my books,…

As far as I know, the US Army still teaches land navigation using a paper map, protractor, pencil, and compass. At least they did when I was in (early 2000s). Getting caught with a GPS-capable device on the land nav course was considered cheating.

Still going, that will never change.

Re: Mourning the End of Paper Maps

#60

Post by potta_coffee » Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #34

Paper maps will prevail as long as not-rich people are interested in (real) outdoor activities. Paper maps have a consistency and security no digital navigation device I ever owned or saw ever had. I realize this is a kind of "get off my lawn" argument one could also make about digital vs analog newspapers, or books. The key is: If my Kindle decides to do some weird updating and requires re-downloading all my books,…

FWIW in the infantry, traditional land navigation is still considered an essential skill. Batteries can die, equipment can be broken but a compass is a pretty simple and hearty piece of kit.