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Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

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Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#31

Post by brnt »

musicale wrote: post #10
throwaway_shame wrote: post #8

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails, withholding stipend for several months and so on. It's a disaster and I never imagined myself in this situation. I hope things change soon.

This isn't going to change. You should do everything in your power to get a better supervisor, particularly for your dissertation research. You're early enough in the process that starting a new project, or modifying your current project, is completely worth it to get a better supervisor who actually supports you and will help you graduate. Talk to other grad students to see what they think of their advisors. Also yo…

The difficulty is knowing who's a good supervisor. As a msc student, you may only know of their academic reputation, which has nothing to do with quality or attitude to supervision. In retrospect I was lucky, and my supervisors bio picture has him hanging in a hammock, which, if I had known, could have been exactly the indicator I should have looked for.

Either way, try if you can, and don't hesitate to stop with the current supervisor if it's just not working for you. No reason to continue on an unhappy path. It's always worth choosing your own sanity.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#33

Post by throwaway6734 »

brnt wrote: post #21
throwaway_shame wrote: post #8

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails, withholding stipend for several months and so on. It's a disaster and I never imagined myself in this situation. I hope things change soon.

It helps if you can let go of the top places. I've done a PhD at a subtop institute, less well known, and I made a rule of not working in the weekend/evening (unless it was my own initiative, which was rarely), and I had a blast. I'm doing a postdoc now at another subtop place, which will be the end of my academic career because getting tenure of course still requires more than average, which I'm happy to admit I am.…

Thanks for sharing this!

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#34

Post by ISL »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #29
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

Really true. We need more examples of people completing PhDs in 1-2 years because they've already done the research and written most of the thesis. It's totally possible.

That misses the learning process in a PhD program. A PhD is not just the thesis work, it is also the education and mentorship that is generally necessary to become an expert in both a broad field and a specialty.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#35

Post by pm90 »

VvR-Ox wrote: post #19
andrewl wrote: post #2

Nature published "A PhD State of Mind" in 2018, with this blurb: Recent surveys have linked academia and PhD studies to a risk of experiencing mental health issues. Despite the lack of extensive data, the negative impact of the stresses of lab life should not be underestimated, and PhD students and research trainees should be supported. It was discussed here at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19322834 . Repeatin…

I have heard something similar about a grammar school in Germany. Every 2nd year a student killed himself and also drug abuse and other things like that are more commonplace there compared to other types of schools in the city. It seems that many similar institutions cannot cope with the development of young people and then the pressure rises until some of them see no other choice but to end this or try to escape. Al…

I think you make a very good point in your last statement. The reason for encouraging young people to succeed within institutional frameworks can be easily explained as a direct outcome of the needs of modern states to churn out skilled people for “The betterment of the Nation”. Schools were originally meant to train the population in skills that would greatly assist them as soldiers or workers in a factory. Life expectancies were different then and so were social conventions around eg marriage.

Today, most nations are at peace and life expectancy is generally large and fertility rates and marriage are declining. This means that there isn’t the urgent need as it was then to train early. Institutions should be changed with these new circumstances in mind.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#36

Post by xenocyon »

bonniemuffin wrote: post #30
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

I'm glad you called out biology as a counterexample. In my grad school/postdoc experience, publishing a meaningful paper in the wet lab biosciences often requires tens of thousands of dollars in consumable materials, as well as $100k+ of lab hardware. Casual garage researchers have very little opportunity to contribute to the field in meaningful ways.

I would say math is the exception, rather than biology. In most fields - even ones that don't require physical experiments - research is aided quite a bit by infrastructure, interaction, and environment.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#37

Post by jasonhong »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #29
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

Really true. We need more examples of people completing PhDs in 1-2 years because they've already done the research and written most of the thesis. It's totally possible.

Part of the reason it typically takes 5-6 years to complete a PhD (in computer science at least) is because it takes a long time to learn the methods, the skills, and the large body of past work, as well as just becoming a member of the research community (via attending workshops and conferences, publishing paper, and reviewing).

It's possible to complete a PhD in 2-3 years, but this also typically leaves no room for exploration or any kinds of errors. At CMU, the only examples I know of were people who were on leave from the military and had a hard stop after 3 years to return.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#38

Post by treis »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #29
mikorym wrote: post #23

I started to work instead of doing a PhD and I think it was a good decision. The sad part is having less time and progressing more slowly with research (outside of one's job, whatever it may be) but maybe it's better than not having a job and also progressing slowly doing a PhD full time. As an aside, if you have a clear research interest already (which many PhD naturally take a long time to find) then I don't think…

Really true. We need more examples of people completing PhDs in 1-2 years because they've already done the research and written most of the thesis. It's totally possible.

But where will labs find cheap labor?

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#39

Post by asciident »

brnt wrote: post #21
throwaway_shame wrote: post #8

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails, withholding stipend for several months and so on. It's a disaster and I never imagined myself in this situation. I hope things change soon.

It helps if you can let go of the top places. I've done a PhD at a subtop institute, less well known, and I made a rule of not working in the weekend/evening (unless it was my own initiative, which was rarely), and I had a blast. I'm doing a postdoc now at another subtop place, which will be the end of my academic career because getting tenure of course still requires more than average, which I'm happy to admit I am.…

Yes, so many people are obsessed with the top places, only applying to the most brand new institutions, and then wonder why they're not treated with gloves. If you have incredibly high expectations of the institution, the institution puts tremendous pressure on its faculty, and so the faculty will need to produce in a big way. Hence, you will either need to produce in a big way or they won't have time for you.

So many people think they're too good to apply for a school like Ohio State or Boston University, but then themselves are not constantly performing at the highest world caliber.

Re: Nature’s survey of 6k grad students reveals the turbulence of doctoral research

#40

Post by 77pt77 »

throwaway_shame wrote: post #8

I am currently a master's student and about to start PhD in one of the top AI labs. I already feel mentally exhausted with all the indirect pressure tactics my supervisor uses like not responding to emails, withholding stipend for several months and so on. It's a disaster and I never imagined myself in this situation. I hope things change soon.

As someone that went through that many years ago, all I regret is not having cut my losses earlier, even thought I cut them pretty early.
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