Views from an Egyptian • Hacker News Board

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#41

Post by jordanb » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 6:05 PM UTC

I'm very ambivalent on this uprising. Murbarak is a brutal, evil person but the Muslim Brotherhood will be no better for the people of Egypt than he is.

The Shah was a horrible person, but do you think the Ayatollah have brought peace, prosperity, and democracy to Iran?

One thing a radical Egypt will do is further destabilize the region. Particularly the situation with Israel will grow very tense. I am no flag-waver for Israel, but I can't see how a new enemy will do anything but further harden the worst impulses of all participants.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#42

Post by jordanb » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 6:10 PM UTC

lkozma wrote: post #11

A quite interesting perspective: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/2011128...

What was Al Jazeera's take on potential American encouragement of the protests in Iran? Where they demanding that Obama use his bully pulpit to make a strong case for the protesters?

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#43

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 6:57 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #39

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

Yeah, it's called Realpolitik and, for better or worse (usually worse), it's generally the basis of American foreign policy. That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.

[deleted]

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#44

Post by jbooth » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:07 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #39

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

Yeah, it's called Realpolitik and, for better or worse (usually worse), it's generally the basis of American foreign policy. That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.

Eh.. realpolitik is short term and almost always misses the big picture. When things change, you wind up on the wrong side, like us with Mubarak right now. Or all that Taliban and Saddam funding once upon a time.

There's a balance of course.. but in a case like this, I'd elevate America the idea over America the set of short term interests, and I'm embarrassed by Biden's comments too.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#45

Post by jbooth » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:09 PM UTC

jordanb wrote: post #41

I'm very ambivalent on this uprising. Murbarak is a brutal, evil person but the Muslim Brotherhood will be no better for the people of Egypt than he is. The Shah was a horrible person, but do you think the Ayatollah have brought peace, prosperity, and democracy to Iran? One thing a radical Egypt will do is further destabilize the region. Particularly the situation with Israel will grow very tense. I am no flag-waver…

The Muslim Brotherhood is very much not in the driver's seat here. They're old and irrelevant, this is a moment for the young.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#46

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:19 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #39

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

Yeah, it's called Realpolitik and, for better or worse (usually worse), it's generally the basis of American foreign policy. That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.

Realpolitik got you Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Bin Laden, 9/11, Noriega and a whole slew of other problems.

Makes you wonder if it is really worth it.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#47

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:20 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #45

jordanb wrote: post #41

I'm very ambivalent on this uprising. Murbarak is a brutal, evil person but the Muslim Brotherhood will be no better for the people of Egypt than he is. The Shah was a horrible person, but do you think the Ayatollah have brought peace, prosperity, and democracy to Iran? One thing a radical Egypt will do is further destabilize the region. Particularly the situation with Israel will grow very tense. I am no flag-waver…

The Muslim Brotherhood is very much not in the driver's seat here. They're old and irrelevant, this is a moment for the young.

the Iranian revolution was also powered by 'the young', and the Mullahs were not in the drivers seat there either.

Though the return of Khomeini was definitely very much the catalyst.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#48

Post by jbooth » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:22 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #47

jbooth wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Muslim Brotherhood is very much not in the driver's seat here. They're old and irrelevant, this is a moment for the young.

the Iranian revolution was also powered by 'the young', and the Mullahs were not in the drivers seat there either. Though the return of Khomeini was definitely very much the catalyst.

They were young then.. then they became old and just as corrupt as those they replaced. The Muslim Brotherhood is the same generation, but now they're 30 years older.

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#49

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:23 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #33

This is where I become ashamed of my government: "“Mubarak has been an ally of ours in a number of things. And he’s been very responsible on, relative to geopolitical interest in the region, the Middle East peace efforts; the actions Egypt has taken relative to normalizing relationship with – with Israel. … I would not refer to him as a dictator.” - Joe Biden http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Joe-…

[deleted]

Re: Views from an Egyptian

#50

Post by InclinedPlane » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 7:38 PM UTC

jbooth wrote: post #44

hvs wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's called Realpolitik and, for better or worse (usually worse), it's generally the basis of American foreign policy. That said, "idealism" is also often a terrible basis for foreign policy as well.

Eh.. realpolitik is short term and almost always misses the big picture. When things change, you wind up on the wrong side, like us with Mubarak right now. Or all that Taliban and Saddam funding once upon a time. There's a balance of course.. but in a case like this, I'd elevate America the idea over America the set of short term interests, and I'm embarrassed by Biden's comments too.

Indeed. People will make you think that Realpolitik is some hard-thinking, tough-decisions geopolitical chess game. But it's not, it's just international checkers, making the least bad decision at the last minute because you haven't planned ahead. It's a shame that it has infected American foreign policy for so long.

Naive idealism is no better, but pragmatic idealism is far far better, but also far more difficult.