Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere) • Hacker News Board

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#121

Post by cturner » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 2:14 PM UTC

redthrowaway wrote: post #112

cturner wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might come across as an anti-American rant. Well - a lot of your comment is worded as though it's a contradition to what I said, where it isn't. It's difficult to participate in a conversation where you're getting hit over the head with a world view like that.

I'm not trying to hit anyone over the head with a worldview, merely trying to dispel the notion that "friendly" governments in the middle east are somehow "good". Your assertion that Egypt is "committed to peace", and therefor good for the region, is mistaken. The government of Egypt is committed to peace inasmuch, and only inasmuch, as it is committed to self-preservation through currying Western (primarily US) favo…

    I'm not trying to hit anyone over the head with a
    worldview, merely trying to dispel the notion that
    "friendly" governments in the middle east are somehow
    "good". Your assertion that Egypt is "committed to
    peace", and therefor good for the region, is mistaken.

I didn't say committed to peace, so it's pretty low to quote me. I also didn't say friendly. I did say good, but not in the context you use.

    If, on the other hand, you take offense to my claim

I explained what offended me, but you charged through again.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#122

Post by forgottenpaswrd » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 2:17 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #40

Zak wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Passing a law like that means they'll put in the infrastructure to actually do it. If things deteriorate significantly in the US, it is likely that attempting to gain the ability to shut down the internet would directly trigger some sort of civil unrest while now it only triggers angry blog posts.

I am at a loss as to what this additional infrastructure really permits that having lots of armored men with guns does not. Armored men with guns are a flexible bunch, they can do lots of things. The marginal distinction to the person in power between pressing a button and ordering other people to go shut the net down is pretty minimal; it's not like without this switch, the President is going to actually have go out…

"I am at a loss as to what this additional infrastructure really permits that having lots of armored men with guns does not. Armored men with guns are a flexible bunch, they can do lots of things. The marginal distinction to the person in power between pressing a button and ordering other people to go shut the net down is pretty minimal"

Very easy to understand: they don't have lots of men with guns the moment they ask these men to point to their family members, to their community, in a wrong way . People will not obey things that go against the law, because they are not drones, and oppose firmly unless the law itself makes them comply(no exit).

If you have the force but not the authority law gives you, your force is briefly temporal.

E.g It was essential for Hitler to get a law that gave it full powers, using the excuse of punishing the communist for Reichstag fire, fire that could had been caused by Nazi supporters.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#123

Post by jemfinch » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 2:30 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #70

jemfinch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans may be docile, but businesses and corporations are not. What do you think the proprietors of the thousands of POPs across America are going to tell the feds who come to shut them down? What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income? Do you really think the same corporations that extensively lobby the government now are g…

"What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income?" They're going to say: "how much will you pay us to help you do it?" The answer will be "a lot" as it's always been. And the answer if they don't comply will be "you're finished". Standard mafioso tactics. Are you really expecting giant corporations to have principles at all, not to…

> The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution.

Most of the founding fathers of the United States were rich, you know.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#124

Post by redthrowaway » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 2:34 PM UTC

cturner wrote: post #121

redthrowaway wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to hit anyone over the head with a worldview, merely trying to dispel the notion that "friendly" governments in the middle east are somehow "good". Your assertion that Egypt is "committed to peace", and therefor good for the region, is mistaken. The government of Egypt is committed to peace inasmuch, and only inasmuch, as it is committed to self-preservation through currying Western (primarily US) favo…

I'm not trying to hit anyone over the head with a worldview, merely trying to dispel the notion that "friendly" governments in the middle east are somehow "good". Your assertion that Egypt is "committed to peace", and therefor good for the region, is mistaken. I didn't say committed to peace, so it's pretty low to quote me. I also didn't say friendly. I did say good, but not in the context you use. If, on the other h…

Sorry, "committed to peace" came from elsewhere; your words were "active in working towards regional peace". I'm not sure how these differ, but given your opposition to my previous characterization, I would be interested in hearing your views on the matter. As for "good", you implied that a propagation of Mubaraks would be a good thing. If I'm reading that wrong, again, feel free to correct me.

"I explained what offended me, but you charged through again."

I'm not sure where your offense comes from. I specified which part of your claim I was attempting to refute; I took no stance on the "Mubarak is better than the alternative" side. Certainly, there are much worse options out there. I took issue, however, with your claim that a middle east of Mubaraks would be better than the current situation. While this may or may not be true, it should not be a goal of any thinking, compassionate individual.

Feel free to contradict that, as well.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#125

Post by awakeasleep » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:30 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #83

awakeasleep wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this argument get a lot of play. These sorts of things are important because ease dictates more of what happens in life than posibility. Make it easier to turn off the net, there is more chance of it happening, and it'll take less resources from the controlling party to do it. Like you said, 'they' could already turn off the internet. So why bother with the effort to make a killswitch? Because the resources it'…

Because the resources it'd take to kill the internet manually matter They only need to turn off one big ISP or 2 before the others are going to shut down themselves. Look at what happened with Wikileaks. If someone can always find a flaw in crypto implementations, why bother with cryptography? That's a pretty big IF, because it depends on finding flaws, and there is no recipe for that and you're also not certain if y…

What did you think of my point:

'They' could already turn off the internet. So why bother with the effort to make a killswitch? Because the resources it'd take to kill the internet manually matter.

I think of that in terms of 1) simple manpower, 2) cooperation, and 3) perception.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#126

Post by tfh » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:42 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #102

tfh wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the internet (and specially facebook) had a big role too. Facebook videos were crucial to show that the people were not giving up specially when the television was silent about the whole thing. BTW who's your nominee?

I still not decided. I want someone secular, capitalist and liberal. Someone with a good history and background in economics and politics. He'll get some good promotion, as I'll be dedicating all my summer for pushing his campaign forward :)

>I still not decided. I want someone secular, capitalist and liberal.

Good luck with finding someone like that. Contact me if you want some help.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#127

Post by mindcrime » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:45 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #54

zoomzoom wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't trust me - but I would wager a bet that the US government already has such infrastructure. We trust them with the power to detonate 1,000's of thermonuclear warheads or study Ebola virus for weapnization at USAMRID - the internet kill switch is horrible, but it is nowhere near the top of my list.

One nuclear bomb, set off at the right location and altitude, could wipe out the Internet and most consumer electronics for most of the continental USA. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse . And this is with no direct physical injury.

Interestingly enough, F. Paul Wilson used something along those lines as a big part of the plot of his latest novel Fatal Error. The "bad guys" need to take down the Internet as part of the story, and he lays out a pretty elaborate scheme that they use to do it. http://www.amazon.com/Fatal-Error-Repairman-Jack-Wilson/dp/0...

Unfortunately this is the most recent of a pretty long series, so it probably would't be much fun to read unless you had read the series up to this point. But if anyone wants an interesting fictional scenario where the 'Net is knocked entirely (or almost entirely) offline, there ya go...

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#128

Post by danenania » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:51 PM UTC

JoachimSchipper wrote: post #98

danenania wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income?" They're going to say: "how much will you pay us to help you do it?" The answer will be "a lot" as it's always been. And the answer if they don't comply will be "you're finished". Standard mafioso tactics. Are you really expecting giant corporations to have principles at all, not to…

> The filthily rich throughout history haven't exactly been the harbingers of revolution. Actually, more than one revolution was an attempt by the rich to overthrow the powerful.

Of course they will try to manipulate the situation, but will you see them on the street?

It's not really the point though. Perhaps I'm wrong about the importance of the wealthy in revolutions throughout history. The point is it's naive to expect giant corporations to take enormous risks in defying government power. Wealthy individuals? Perhaps. Perhaps small businesses or startups. But not big corporations--they are too profit-centered and conservative and they have too much to lose. Just look at Vodafone's complicit behavior in Egypt. It's a direct parallel.

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#129

Post by knowaveragejoe » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:54 PM UTC

danenania wrote: post #70

jemfinch wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans may be docile, but businesses and corporations are not. What do you think the proprietors of the thousands of POPs across America are going to tell the feds who come to shut them down? What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income? Do you really think the same corporations that extensively lobby the government now are g…

"What do you think Google or Microsoft or Facebook are going to say when the government tries to cut off their primary source of income?" They're going to say: "how much will you pay us to help you do it?" The answer will be "a lot" as it's always been. And the answer if they don't comply will be "you're finished". Standard mafioso tactics. Are you really expecting giant corporations to have principles at all, not to…

Considering that a good portion of the money that you're suggesting the gov't would pay those companies to shut down their internet facing services comes in part from those same companies' internet revenues(as taxes), I don't know how this would work. It would be an economical disaster for the gov't to shut down the one thing that's propped up our economy so well in the last 20 years. You seem to forget the gov't has money because of taxes, they don't just pull it out of their ass(es).

Re: Egypt has shut off the Internet (update: not everywhere)

#130

Post by knowaveragejoe » Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 3:57 PM UTC

seancron wrote: post #26

jacquesm wrote: post #21

Any government currently in power will have an item in its playbook titled 'shut down public internet access', right next to a folder labeled 'island mode' and 'totally dark'. Some will be upfront about it, some will be more circumspect but media control has long been one of the central points in crowd control and just like newspapers, radio and TV stations are with some regularity taken over by the government (Italy…

Which makes me wonder, is there a way to make an ad-hoc, decentralized internet that a government could not shut down?

There is also the Netsukkuku project. http://netsukuku.freaknet.org/ However, it requires other nodes around you to have the software installed as well, which would require planning prior to a significant enough communications outage that would warrant its use.