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Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

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Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#91

Post by spanxx »

thoughtleader31 wrote: post #83
ankalagon wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain recognized independence of Mapuche Nation after more than one hundred years of war [1][2]. Chile and Argentina started a war campaign against them [2][3][4]. The Mapuches call it the Last Massacre (La última masacre in Spanish)[1]. [1] https://www.mapuche-nation.org/english/html/m_nation/main/m_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arauco_War [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Araucan%C3%ADa [4] ht…

Yes, it's a complex issue that evolved over the course of centuries. But it's a remarkable exception that the Mapuche managed to settle a border with the Crown. I've never said that Chile was any better. I mean, it was in comparison to some periods, the early conquest saw mutilation as collective punishment and impalement as execution of POWs. What you just said isn't a defense of the Spanish Empire. If anything it i…

I'm not defending anybody, just setting some historical context.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#92

Post by spanxx »

thoughtleader31 wrote: post #84
spanxx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty interesting how independent latin-american governments succeeded in conquering native lands and subjugating native population: See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Araucan%C3%ADa Please note I'm giving sources.

I know that Latin American successor states then went on to do the same and worse. The Chilean Congress only this year acknowledged the genocide of the peoples in Tierra del Fuego, perpetrated by mercenaries of settlers of various nationalities with total impunity from the Chilean state. Do look up the Wikipedia article on the War of Arauco for accounts of the cruelty of Pizarro and Pedro de Valdivia. As I said, the…

As time passes our society should be judged more severely. You can't judge actions of XVI century, bit you can sure judge actions of XX century.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#93

Post by Maultasche »

spanxx wrote: post #70
Svip wrote: post #2

Because it makes the Conquistadors' conquests of the New World seem more appetising? Because it downplays the indiscriminate conquering of the Americas? Spain commemorates the day Columbus discovered America as its national day, as it ushered in a golden age for Spain, which is true enough. But with the atrocities inflicted by Spain (along with the other European powers) on the natives in the New World, it may have b…

Do you really think that a hundred of undisciplined soldiers could fight and won a war against an empire? Spanish conquerors were lucky that Aztecs were hated by other natives and allied them. It was more like a civil war than a conquest.

Yeah, a lot of people simplify it and say it was guns, horses, and armor that allows Cortes to conquer the Aztecs, but I eventually learned that it was nothing like that.

The guns, horses, and armor (although there were only a few relatively primitive guns, mainly cannon) did offer an advantage, their opponents learned to deal with these elements. A couple hundred against tens of thousands will lose even with the tech advantage.

They really only had a chance because they found lots of allies willing to overthrow their cruel oppressors. Even then, something like half of the Spaniards were killed in the street fighting in what is today Mexico City, both in the initial escape after negotiations went downhill and the return with a large army.

The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz contains an interesting account of the fighting that took place, and he makes it clear that their allies were essential to their victory. It's a fascinating read.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#94

Post by perl4ever »

proc0 wrote: post #76
nestorD wrote: post #9

My understanding, after reading the memoir of Bernal diaz Del Castillo[0] (who was an eye witness of the conquest of Mexico), is that it was Montezuma II who purposefully spread rumors saying that the conquistador were returning gods so that people would stop fighting them and start trading with them. It was not superstitious belief from ignorant savages, it was a political move. [0]: which I highly recommend, they a…

Which contradicts the article, which I suspect is based on that book that has some shifty agenda to re-write history. The fact is, at least technologically, Europeans might as well have been gods. Anyone doubting this just read the history, a handful of Spanish conquering a whole empire (twice!). Imagine if Spain wanted to engage in a full fledged war with the Aztecs or Incas. They could have easily wiped out everybo…

I mean, when the Soviet Union fell, it wasn't because they were conquered by gods - somewhere I got the impression that was somewhat analogous to what happened in the Americas.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#95

Post by intrnttrll »

proc0 wrote: post #76
nestorD wrote: post #9

My understanding, after reading the memoir of Bernal diaz Del Castillo[0] (who was an eye witness of the conquest of Mexico), is that it was Montezuma II who purposefully spread rumors saying that the conquistador were returning gods so that people would stop fighting them and start trading with them. It was not superstitious belief from ignorant savages, it was a political move. [0]: which I highly recommend, they a…

Which contradicts the article, which I suspect is based on that book that has some shifty agenda to re-write history. The fact is, at least technologically, Europeans might as well have been gods. Anyone doubting this just read the history, a handful of Spanish conquering a whole empire (twice!). Imagine if Spain wanted to engage in a full fledged war with the Aztecs or Incas. They could have easily wiped out everybo…

Europeans of the late 1400s and early 1500s weren't technologically "godlike" to the aztecs, incas or anyone else. It wasn't until the 1800s when industrial revolution in the US and Britain put the real separation between the west and the rest.

> Anyone doubting this just read the history, a handful of Spanish conquering a whole empire (twice!).

They didn't conquer the "whole empire". They conquered the elites. Big difference.

> Imagine if Spain wanted to engage in a full fledged war with the Aztecs or Incas.

Spain would have been utterly crushed. There is a reason why spain didn't wage a full fledged war against the aztecs or the incas.

> They could have easily wiped out everybody.

With what? A bunch of useless and inaccurate muskets?

I think you are highly overestimating what europeans were back then and their technological capabilities. Spain conquered the aztecs like the british conquered mughal india. They bought some elites, killed other elites and for whatever reason were at the right place at the right time to exploit the aztecs. Why and how is completely lost to history sadly.

But one thing we know for certain is that the atzecs elites were completely incompetent and ignorant and most likely divided. Which is a recipe for disaster. But all empires seem to verge towards that state amongst the elites - persians, romans, mongols, etc.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#96

Post by codyb »

willvarfar wrote: post #59
golergka wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having peasant-level subjects believe the mystic stuff peddled by the state propaganda machine paints the civilization as "ignorant savages" to a much lesser degree than a head of state believing the mystic stuff themselves.

At the time the heads of European states believed they had a god-given right to rule etc. Why does an American president have to swear on a bible, even nowadays?

They don’t. They could swear on the Constitution, or the Quran, or a picture their granddaughter drew for them.

It’s the oath that matters, not what your hand is on.

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#97

Post by Bendingo »

alexanderthe- wrote: post #51
nestorD wrote: post #9

My understanding, after reading the memoir of Bernal diaz Del Castillo[0] (who was an eye witness of the conquest of Mexico), is that it was Montezuma II who purposefully spread rumors saying that the conquistador were returning gods so that people would stop fighting them and start trading with them. It was not superstitious belief from ignorant savages, it was a political move. [0]: which I highly recommend, they a…

I don't recall that being mentioned in Bernal Diaz del Castillo's "The Conquest of New Spain". I've also read "The Broken Spears", an Aztec account of the conquest which was recorded once surviving members of the Conquest or their descendants had learned written language. In both accounts, it appeared that there had been forewarning of "Gods" from the east who would conquer the Aztecs from the priestly / ruling caste…

> there had been forewarning of "Gods" from the east who would conquer the Aztecs

I'm reading a history of Christianity right now, that says this. Apparently the Aztecs had wiped out an earlier civilisation (Toltecs), and the legend is that the defeated king would return as a god and take revenge. The return would occur in a certain year of the 53 year Aztec cycle, and the avenging god-king would come from the East, and be light-skinned (all of which matched up).

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#98

Post by sifar »

intrnttrll wrote: post #95
proc0 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which contradicts the article, which I suspect is based on that book that has some shifty agenda to re-write history. The fact is, at least technologically, Europeans might as well have been gods. Anyone doubting this just read the history, a handful of Spanish conquering a whole empire (twice!). Imagine if Spain wanted to engage in a full fledged war with the Aztecs or Incas. They could have easily wiped out everybo…

Europeans of the late 1400s and early 1500s weren't technologically "godlike" to the aztecs, incas or anyone else. It wasn't until the 1800s when industrial revolution in the US and Britain put the real separation between the west and the rest. > Anyone doubting this just read the history, a handful of Spanish conquering a whole empire (twice!). They didn't conquer the "whole empire". They conquered the elites. Big d…

Minor nitpick.

>> the british conquered mughal india.

It was not the Mughals but the Marathas, however the methods essentially were as you described.

The Mughals were already in decline, during the EIC's rise. The dominant power in India during that time was the Maratha Empire. This period is often glossed over in history.

Fun fact, the Anglo-Maratha war was the first major campaign of one Arthur Wellesley, who later went on to defeat Napoleon at Waterloo. The battle of Assaye is one of my favourites [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maratha_Empire

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Assaye

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#99

Post by saiya-jin »

spanxx wrote: post #49
saiya-jin wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be really surprised if you actually got raw version of history as it happened at school. Very few countries actually admit properly their past mistakes (Germany and WWII might be rather an exception). Raw version would be somewhere along the lines of "our ancestors were among the most horrible arrogant ignorant humans that ever lived if measured by the amount of evil done unto the others, and we are deeply as…

Do you have any sources of that? Claiming 8 million people were slaved is a bit of stretch, don't you think?

Literally the first thing that comes from google search of this. Plus they claim this number when you are actually there in their museum dedicated specifically to this horrible part of their history. Visited last year, some 'jobs' around smelting had survivability in mere weeks because of all the toxicity.

Plus took a trip quite deep into the mines themselves. Imagine mountain that is almost 4800m high, drilled through like a proper swiss emmental cheese (they claim around 500 different entrances to tunnel system).

Re: Why was it believed that the Aztecs greeted Cortés as a deity?

#100

Post by willvarfar »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #89
willvarfar wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why Thanksgiving is celebrated at all. Its a bunch of religious bigots who left England for Holland because England was too religiously tolerant. They then had to leave Holland because they felt threatened by the fact that their children didn't want to continue their religion and were 'going native'. So they head off to the English colonies in America where they settle land cleared of native Indian…

> Its a bunch of religious bigots... Plausible. > ... who left England for Holland... True. > ... because England was too religiously tolerant. Was too tolerant ? No. They left for Holland because they were literally suffering religious persecution in England.

It’s true they left England because they became outlawed. But the reason they became outlawed is because they went around being intolerant of everyone else.

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Why-Did-the-Puritans-Really... is a good intro to a very interesting subject. History is “written by the victors” and the popular US school history curriculum doesn’t seem to really question it.

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