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Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

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Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#171

Post by kennywinker »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #170
kennywinker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all attempts by men to advocate for equality or call out bullshit are “white knight”-ing. White knighting implies that it is unwanted. I am charging in to “rescue” someone when they do not want to be rescued. It is legitimate for a man to call out a bias when he sees it. To ignore it and leave it for women to point out is... frankly helping maintain the status quo. I’m sorry you found my comment dismissive and a…

I also definitely didn’t read your username, so don’t take anything i said to be a reaction your female handle. I definitely assumed a male writer (which is it’s own problem). It is, in fact, a much larger problem. To my mind, white knighting is about men playing hero in order to enhance their ego and public reputation as the primary or sole goal such that actually addressing sexism is not only incidental, it's actua…

Sorry still don’t agree that I “treated you like shit” by arguing that the facts don’t agree with your dismissal of the original story as an “sjw” overreaction.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#172

Post by dkonofalski »

WA wrote: post #30
rndgermandude wrote: post #13

Other than him being very outraged and claiming gender-based discrimination again and again, is there actually anything to suggest the algorithm is biased on the gender axis, as opposed to any other axis? Just to be clear: I am not dismissing the possibility that the algorithm (meaning the training data, really) is gender biased, it just isn't clear from what I have seen in the tweet storm that this is necessarily th…

The whole thread is less about his wife having a lower credit limit, and more about Apple reps not understanding the fucking algorithm. The axis doesn’t really matter. Maybe it’s gender, maybe it’s not. In any case, it should be about money, credit score, trustworthiness. Apparently, it’s not. Being a women could be one indicator. It might be "being black" for other people. There seems to be something fishy going on…

>There seems to be something fishy going on and Apple doesn’t even know why

That seems a little silly, though, since Goldman Sachs is the bank in charge of the card and approval process. Just like Amazon doesn't know anything about the processes that are used to determine credit worthiness for their cards (that falls to Chase and Synchrony), Apple is merely licensing services from GS.

On top of that, GS representatives that work in a call center aren't going to know anything about the details or inner workings of the process either. With the amount of potential abuse for such information, it feels like it would be irresponsible for those people to have access to that info.

The bigger issue is that this couple had a valid complaint and had to turn to Twitter to resolve it instead of GS having some formal method of requesting the info.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#173

Post by dkonofalski »

ksec wrote: post #101
rndgermandude wrote: post #13

Other than him being very outraged and claiming gender-based discrimination again and again, is there actually anything to suggest the algorithm is biased on the gender axis, as opposed to any other axis? Just to be clear: I am not dismissing the possibility that the algorithm (meaning the training data, really) is gender biased, it just isn't clear from what I have seen in the tweet storm that this is necessarily th…

In the thread, it was pointed out that her wife actually has a better credit score than he did, and judging from the photo, it looks like ( I may be wrong ) that she only gets like $50 of credit limit. I had the same thought as you did when I first read it, for those of us not in US, it seems strange and we assume those Credit Score and Algorithm works as intended, like in your example of past loans and payment. And…

>it looks like ( I may be wrong ) that she only gets like $50 of credit limit.

She actually got a higher limit than that but spent the majority of it. The complaint was that she had paid off the entire balance that she had spent already but the limit wasn't reset and wouldn't reset upon payment but would reset at the end of the billing cycle so she only had a $50 limit until that point.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#174

Post by [deleted] »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #143
kennywinker wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There a many people chiming in that they have had the same experience, and nobody saying they had the opposite. If the credit limit difference was unrelated to sex there would be random distribution of couples with the inverse experience. So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems…

So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems like you are wrong that it was an overreaction. That's basically a dismissive personal attack. One of the most frustrating and crazy-making aspects of participating on HN as openly female is the frequency with which one must politely endur…

[deleted]

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#175

Post by donarb »

dkonofalski wrote: post #172
WA wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thread is less about his wife having a lower credit limit, and more about Apple reps not understanding the fucking algorithm. The axis doesn’t really matter. Maybe it’s gender, maybe it’s not. In any case, it should be about money, credit score, trustworthiness. Apparently, it’s not. Being a women could be one indicator. It might be "being black" for other people. There seems to be something fishy going on…

>There seems to be something fishy going on and Apple doesn’t even know why That seems a little silly, though, since Goldman Sachs is the bank in charge of the card and approval process. Just like Amazon doesn't know anything about the processes that are used to determine credit worthiness for their cards (that falls to Chase and Synchrony), Apple is merely licensing services from GS. On top of that, GS representativ…

Although after this, I would think that this is a good opportunity for Apple to work with Goldman to better understand the algorithm and strive to make the process become more fair and transparent. Just like Apple how deals with 3rd parties making their devices where they can help enforce work and environmental rules.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#176

Post by WA »

dkonofalski wrote: post #172
WA wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thread is less about his wife having a lower credit limit, and more about Apple reps not understanding the fucking algorithm. The axis doesn’t really matter. Maybe it’s gender, maybe it’s not. In any case, it should be about money, credit score, trustworthiness. Apparently, it’s not. Being a women could be one indicator. It might be "being black" for other people. There seems to be something fishy going on…

>There seems to be something fishy going on and Apple doesn’t even know why That seems a little silly, though, since Goldman Sachs is the bank in charge of the card and approval process. Just like Amazon doesn't know anything about the processes that are used to determine credit worthiness for their cards (that falls to Chase and Synchrony), Apple is merely licensing services from GS. On top of that, GS representativ…

DHH posted about this exact thing today. Basically: who cares? It has the Apple logo on it. Apple says: "It was created by Apple, not a bank."

They are responsible and nobody else is to blame if the parts they outsource fail.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dhh/status/1193716881351294976

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#177

Post by dkonofalski »

donarb wrote: post #175
dkonofalski wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There seems to be something fishy going on and Apple doesn’t even know why That seems a little silly, though, since Goldman Sachs is the bank in charge of the card and approval process. Just like Amazon doesn't know anything about the processes that are used to determine credit worthiness for their cards (that falls to Chase and Synchrony), Apple is merely licensing services from GS. On top of that, GS representativ…

Although after this, I would think that this is a good opportunity for Apple to work with Goldman to better understand the algorithm and strive to make the process become more fair and transparent. Just like Apple how deals with 3rd parties making their devices where they can help enforce work and environmental rules.

Definitely. And it sounds like this is exactly what's happening.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#178

Post by dkonofalski »

WA wrote: post #176
dkonofalski wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There seems to be something fishy going on and Apple doesn’t even know why That seems a little silly, though, since Goldman Sachs is the bank in charge of the card and approval process. Just like Amazon doesn't know anything about the processes that are used to determine credit worthiness for their cards (that falls to Chase and Synchrony), Apple is merely licensing services from GS. On top of that, GS representativ…

DHH posted about this exact thing today. Basically: who cares? It has the Apple logo on it. Apple says: "It was created by Apple, not a bank." They are responsible and nobody else is to blame if the parts they outsource fail. https://mobile.twitter.com/dhh/status/1193716881351294976

>who cares?

Apple said they weren't aware of the details surrounding the decision and had the customer (DHH) work with Goldman Sachs to determine the details of the decision. I don't think that's unreasonable and it's not like Apple just wiped their hands of it and said "We don't know, not our problem."

My response was directly responding to the person that said that Apple employees didn't know why the decision was made. Apple was attempting to get an answer for their customer. Especially with credit and finance information, this isn't something that would be acceptable for a low-ranking Apple employee to discuss with the customer and, if DHH is claiming that it should be because it's "Apple's card", then I think he's full of crap.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#179

Post by thereare5lights »

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #57

I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender. It could be "it's a new product, we randomly assign credit limits to see how it affects behavior". It could be "it's a community property state and we're overexposed to this household if we give the second card the same limit as the first". It could, realistically, be almost anything ex…

> but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender.

The anecdotal evidence, that many women are claiming that they received much lower credit limits than their partners, despite similar or superior credit conditions, would seem to indicate otherwise.

I don't believe anyone is saying that they're directly doing it. Just that their algorithms have that outcome.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#180

Post by badcede »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #170
kennywinker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all attempts by men to advocate for equality or call out bullshit are “white knight”-ing. White knighting implies that it is unwanted. I am charging in to “rescue” someone when they do not want to be rescued. It is legitimate for a man to call out a bias when he sees it. To ignore it and leave it for women to point out is... frankly helping maintain the status quo. I’m sorry you found my comment dismissive and a…

I also definitely didn’t read your username, so don’t take anything i said to be a reaction your female handle. I definitely assumed a male writer (which is it’s own problem). It is, in fact, a much larger problem. To my mind, white knighting is about men playing hero in order to enhance their ego and public reputation as the primary or sole goal such that actually addressing sexism is not only incidental, it's actua…

> If every man who ever beat his chest about how sexism is a bad thing spent more time working on his bad habits, things would change.

You can say that again. This place and others would be unrecognizable.

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