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Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

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Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#121

Post by sgerenser »

judge2020 wrote: post #92
Terretta wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One data point really isn't enough to draw a conclusion My wife's credit history is longer and historically her score higher because I used no revolving credit until recently, and not using credit cards counts against you. Also married filing jointly... For the Apple Card, I was given her limit several times over. I did notice that the expected limit is shown before the hard pull on credit. This means they've got a…

> To your point about the risk model, I generally think the credit score the bureaus give us is wrong, while I think the decision GS made on the card limits is probably plausible I find this likely too, the first time I applied I got denied and the credit score in the email was considerably lower (-100 points) that what is shown on Credit Karma.

This is a common misconception. There is no such thing as a credit score. Theres FICO2008. FICO2015. FICO for car loans. FICO for revolving credit. Vantagescore. And so on and so forth. And then each of these can be based on data in any of the three different Angencies, which may be significantly different. So have if two different credit scores that are off by 100 points isn’t even remotely unusual. Many times even the scale itself is different (max of 850 vs 950 on another model).

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#122

Post by daenz »

slg wrote: post #6

>“Any algorithm, that intentionally or not results in discriminatory treatment of women or any other protected class of people violates New York [and federal] law.” I worry about this a lot with the growing importance of algorithms and machine learning. You can't just not actively program the thing to discriminate and assume that is enough. You have to specifically program it to not discriminate.

All uneven distributions must be weighted accordingly to emulate a uniform distribution across classes. That's apparently what some people want.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#123

Post by DoreenMichele »

zamalek wrote: post #114
burnte wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender. There certainly is. Ignoring the anecdotal data of people replying to him who saw the same outcome, credit scores for women skew lower than for men. One of many sources: https://www.federalreserve.gov/econres/notes/feds-notes/gend...

> credit scores for women skew lower than for men. Which is crazy, because for most of my guy friends (myself included), saying that their significant others/women make significantly better financial decisions is putting it far too lightly. I basically wasn't making decisions at all (besides savings) until my s/o set me right. This discrimination is tragic and disgusting.

Women tend to have lower incomes and lower net worths. Here is a recent article squeeing about women finally being willing to buy homes on their own:

https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/the-rise-...

One of the statistics in it: Single women can only afford about 39% of homes. Single men can afford more than half.

Historically, couples with traditional marriages (primary breadwinner husband, wife whose primary responsibilities were women's work) often did not bother to put her name on a real estate transaction or car purchase. This substantially impairs a woman's ability to establish a credit record and reduces her legal claim to assets.

If you get divorced, the person with a real career and resume to match will likely continue having a good income. Someone who was a full-time wife and mom will face serious barriers to establishing a real career at all and may well remain poor for years to come.

I'm quite financially savvy. Financial savvy only goes so far. Ability to pay still matters and men are more likely to have that piece covered.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#125

Post by kennywinker »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #110
heartbreak wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s assume that the tweet author is reasonably well-versed in business operations, since he is himself a very successful businessman.

Sure. Let's assume I am very well versed in other pertinent domains of knowledge, like social psychology and the tendency for people to get mad as hell about social justice issues and leap to ugly conclusions that fit their SJW narrative about evil in the world that can be conveniently lumped under a one word heading, like sexism. Let's further assume that this is actually actively counterproductive, so it's reasonab…

There a many people chiming in that they have had the same experience, and nobody saying they had the opposite. If the credit limit difference was unrelated to sex there would be random distribution of couples with the inverse experience.

So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems like you are wrong that it was an overreaction.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#126

Post by [deleted] »

kennywinker wrote: post #125
DoreenMichele wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. Let's assume I am very well versed in other pertinent domains of knowledge, like social psychology and the tendency for people to get mad as hell about social justice issues and leap to ugly conclusions that fit their SJW narrative about evil in the world that can be conveniently lumped under a one word heading, like sexism. Let's further assume that this is actually actively counterproductive, so it's reasonab…

There a many people chiming in that they have had the same experience, and nobody saying they had the opposite. If the credit limit difference was unrelated to sex there would be random distribution of couples with the inverse experience. So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems…

[deleted]

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#128

Post by mikestew »

Since we are slinging anecdotes around, starting with TFA, my wife and I file jointly, have what I believe to be a good credit score. I filled out what little form there is for both of our cards. Put down the same income, etc. I think our credit limits are the same (need her phone to verify), but she got 13% and I got 18% APR. Now how the hell is there a five percent difference? Not that it matters because they both get paid off, but WTF? (And 18%; seriously, GS?)

But on topic, she got the considerably better interest rate.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#129

Post by MaupitiBlue »

taway87 wrote: post #65
slg wrote: post #6

>“Any algorithm, that intentionally or not results in discriminatory treatment of women or any other protected class of people violates New York [and federal] law.” I worry about this a lot with the growing importance of algorithms and machine learning. You can't just not actively program the thing to discriminate and assume that is enough. You have to specifically program it to not discriminate.

So, "credit realism", to match "IQ realism"? I see this a lot, and the background assumption seems to be "in the real world, minority group A is actually riskier, dumber, or objectively worse in some other way, so in order to comply with anti-discrimination, we have to introduce special cases." Maybe instead we should start with the assumption that women are NOT riskier, dumber, or objectively worse, and fix the like…

Because the goal was to be realistic, not to assuage white guilt.

Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe

#130

Post by reaperducer »

kyrieeschaton wrote: post #57

I guess it worked for him to throw a hissy fit, but there's absolutely no reason to actually believe they're conditioning on gender. It could be "it's a new product, we randomly assign credit limits to see how it affects behavior". It could be "it's a community property state and we're overexposed to this household if we give the second card the same limit as the first". It could, realistically, be almost anything ex…

It could, realistically, be almost anything except for evil bankers deciding to use illegal criteria

FTA:

“My belief isn’t there was some nefarious person wanting to discriminate. But that doesn’t matter. How do you know there isn’t an issue with the machine-learning algo when no one can explain how this decision was made?”

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