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Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

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Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#121
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

Some great computer scientists and AI pioneers, for instance Terry Winograd, turned to philosophy to look for solutions to some untractable technical problems.

Some philosophers like Bertrand Russell initiated some of the deepest scientific questions. And it's still philosophy (in the figure of Karl Popper) that defined what makes science. Philosophy is the meta-science par excellence.

Apparently you had some bad luck, by discovering philosophy from a poor professor. I had the luck to discover philosophy through some deeply interesting professors, even though I could deeply disagree with them (my first professor of philosophy even was a priest, eeek). I never stopped studying philosophy ever since I was 16, and I probably never will.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#122
post #92
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. Facts are nice, but philosophical debates tend to be about things that are fundamentally unprovable, unobservable, etc. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences and other "hard" disciplines are frustrated by how useless their facts are in solving these debates. As someone with degrees in both a hard science and philosophy I'd say that…

> My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. That may not be as true as you think. Notice the high percentages of internalism, libertarianism, and other positions associated with dualism. (Unfortunately, the survey didn't ask flat out about dualism): http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

Note that "libertarianism" here refers to an argument about free will, not political libertarianism.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#123

Hey, get this ... Maybe Comp. Sci. is too important to be in the "Sciences". What about all those in the humanities that would benefit from knowing how to code and having the basics of knowledge about data structures and algorithms? I know many numbers of people with history degrees, philosophy degrees (myself included), you name it - who taught themselves how to code because it was impossible for them to take comp s…

I'd say basic coding should be taught in the typical "typing and MS Office" classes, if possible. I don't mean higher level concepts, but a simple footing in it can help a lot.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#124
Its almost eerie (in a positive way) that I see this post right when I was thinking about something along the lines of how an effective engineering course should be structured. Only recently I developed an interest in the classics (greek and roman) and also started reading Milton's "Paradise lost", and Seneca's "On the shortness of life". Two things stood out in a lot of these works - 1) the richness of content - meaning how inevitably it makes you think hard while reading, and 2) the usage of language in a way that makes you see the language in a whole new light (especially in Milton's classic - English never looked so beautiful!!). During the process of reading these classics, I was convinced that a 3-4 year study of an engineering (or science) discipline would only be vastly improved if the subject matter had its share of philosophy and literature (call it "lit-phil"). I would go so far as to say that it should be a 50-50 split. There There will always be a debate as to what works should be included, but the amount of quality work is so vast that being selective would not matter. We can argue that to incorporate this into the same 3-4 years of study, we could eliminate some of the engineering course material to make way. Do we really need all those engineering subjects in that much detail?

So then should be an arts degree at all? I would say yes, and thats only for people who just feel overwhelmed by science or engineering (who I come across aplenty) and prefer to study only the arts. If there should be an arts-only degree, why would I propose that engineering be always accompanied by study of lit-phil? Simply because I believe that a mind that needs to grasp engineering has to be somewhat prepared by philosophy and literature and whetted constantly by it during the study.

Now, the only kicker is that at the age of doing a bachelors (which is between 17-19 and 21-23 for the majority), the average engineering bachelor student would not be mature enough to appreciate a healthy dosage of lit-phil. They would inevitably ask why they are being subjected to something totally unrelated - whereas they do not understand that the subject matter is slowly working on their brain in the background (if they care to put an effort into it).

Hope this does not come across as a rant against engineering. I studied electrical engineering and have utmost regard for the field (much more so than "software engineering" - and I am not talking about computer science and engineering here). But I believe its crucial to pay attention to how we inculcate that engineering knowledge into minds in general. And develop engineers that are not afraid to think and contemplate.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#125
post #118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a philosophy major and my take was always that "philosophy is the study of things science hasn't yet solved". Yes, it butts up to science and when you tread over the line that helps you either prove or disprove that part of the theory. It is like a financial model for a startup. In the beginning you guess at what your revenue and expenses are. Then you learn some facts (my rent is $xxxx/mo and I currently have…

I always imagined philosophy as the study of things beyond the realm of science. By saying that its the study of things science hasn't yet solved, you're saying that philosophy is speculation about things that science will possibly solve, but speculation without taking science to date into account, and without empiricism. That just sounds like bad science. Am I misunderstanding your point? In fact, your last three li…

I am not an arbiter of what philosophy is, but it is not bad science. There is no empirical step in philosophy at all. Science requires an empirical step.

You have to take science to date into account. If you do not, you will be proven wrong immediately. You will say 'I think the universe is composed entirely of jelly beans', and I will say 'y experiment disproves that'. If there is an empirical way to answer a question, you should use it. Empiricism works well because it is very convincing.

A lot of the time, you do not have an empirical way to answer your question, because the technology doesn't exist, or the terminology for the question that you want to ask doesn't exist, or you haven't yet adequately specified what the question is.

At its best, it should be the building of a rational, informed, theory about a conceivable hypothetical situation, and rational explorations of the implications of that hypothetical.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#126
post #118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a philosophy major and my take was always that "philosophy is the study of things science hasn't yet solved". Yes, it butts up to science and when you tread over the line that helps you either prove or disprove that part of the theory. It is like a financial model for a startup. In the beginning you guess at what your revenue and expenses are. Then you learn some facts (my rent is $xxxx/mo and I currently have…

I always imagined philosophy as the study of things beyond the realm of science. By saying that its the study of things science hasn't yet solved, you're saying that philosophy is speculation about things that science will possibly solve, but speculation without taking science to date into account, and without empiricism. That just sounds like bad science. Am I misunderstanding your point? In fact, your last three li…

I don't think that's what is being proposed. Philosophy is not bad science. But you can't always know which questions to ask with science, especially in a new field.

One of the things which philosophy does (and has done) is to clarify which questions to ask, how to ask them, and so forth. Once the problem domain is clarified enough, science can step in and start being useful. Of course, there is no clear-cut border between the two (which can be seen historically in the development of physics, biology, etc.)

That's definitely not the only thing which philosophy does, but I think that's the idea being discussed here.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah interesting, I took you up wrongly but your statement was a little ambiguous in my defense. Can you explain what you mean about these logical leaps that smart people take but are wrong-headed, sounds quite intriguing, I have a feeling I know what you mean but I can't articulate it properly.

The idea is that people are using the results of a field to justify its axioms. For example, all of science rests on the assumptions that the world is as it appears (empiricism), there are no supernatural forces, etc. Why do most people buy into these beliefs so strongly even though there is zero evidence for them? The basic reasoning is that empiricism must be correct because we have iPods, therefore 'science' (scie…

The idea is that people are using the results of a field to justify its axioms.

Interesting observation. You can see why it comes about though. It's not like people are going out of there way to be dumb :) They are fed a bunch of triumphalism too. And people are easily misled. Once science starts providing a lot of answers about the universe and also once it starts giving us comforts and toys it's hard not to extrapolate.

Modern atheism is not just a fad for dumb people. That's unfair. Don't forget how hostile religion was to individual atheists. We are living in a comparatively secular time and atheism is in the air. To be fair, when kids are told about Santa Claus they believe that too. I tell my kid that I believe there is no God and that organized religion is not the best way to spiritually develop yourself. You get dumb people everywhere. Socially it's a _great_ thing in my opinion. One less excuse to blow each other up. Now all we have to do is to dislodge the nation-state concept, that's going to be tricky.

I'm curious. Are you a postmodernist? :) How do you think the modernist project crashed and burned? I think modernism as a coherent ideology was never all that pervasive and also was very lumpy (not evely distributed).

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#128
post #31
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

If physics was taught the same way philosophy is, we'd learn about the four elements before getting to Newtonian mechanics.

Instead you learn the latest 'correct' answers, which you can then write on a test and receive a grade for.

I'm not disputing that modern physics is our best understanding of how the physical world works, but you do lose an important aspect of education by this style of pedagogy. When do you learn what made the best scientific minds what they were? Why should you have to reinvent their learning yourself if you want to be as great as them?

The way 'they' teach physics is just one way to learn it, not necessarily the best. Especially if your goals are not simply to get a degree.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#129
post #92
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. Facts are nice, but philosophical debates tend to be about things that are fundamentally unprovable, unobservable, etc. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences and other "hard" disciplines are frustrated by how useless their facts are in solving these debates. As someone with degrees in both a hard science and philosophy I'd say that…

> My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. That may not be as true as you think. Notice the high percentages of internalism, libertarianism, and other positions associated with dualism. (Unfortunately, the survey didn't ask flat out about dualism): http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

  Mind: physicalism or non-physicalism?
  Accept or lean toward: physicalism      526 / 931 (56.4%)
  Accept or lean toward: non-physicalism  252 / 931 (27%)
  Other                                   153 / 931 (16.4%)
Not sure how you can pick "other" from those options, but there you have it. (Physicalism implies non-dualism. Non-physicalism does not imply dualism.)

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>it's generally pretty hard to change courses. I cant speak of Oxford, but I knew several people at Cambridge who changed subjects (sometimes more than once). It's not trivial, but if you want it enough then there isn't much to stop you. (Once you are there then the college's MO is to support your academic success, whatever path it takes). Take-away: don't be put-off applying by this - if you need to change, you can.

To get the undergraduate degree at Cambridge you have to pass the examinations for Part I and II (some subjects have IA, IB and II and others have I, IIA and IIB), along with some other crazy medieval rules. You can trivially switch once you've completed Part I, and also within the first weeks of starting Part I; there are some other circumstances but these are the most common.

There are also courses designed to support switching, e.g. I read maths with computer science IA which usually goes on to 100% maths IB, but switched to computer science without a single headache.

A friend switched from computer science to linguistics, it can be done.

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