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Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

comlab.ox.ac.uk

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Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#91
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every high school chemistry textbook I've seen actually works this way! It's horrible. The chapter starts with Dalton, works up through Rutherford and Bohr, and the last two or three I've seen ended there. Each section is presented as fact, and the kids are quizzed to make sure they know the material, before tearing it all down and teaching them a new bogus theory in the next section. Ugh.

Am I the only one who enjoyed this approach? I was taught atomic theory chronologically starting with the plum pudding model, then rutherford's model, then Bohr's model and finally the quantum models. At each stage, the focus was on: * What observations led the scientists in question to propose the model? e.g. in Rutherford's case, there was an extensive discussion on the gold-foil experiment, the observations he saw…

I last took chemistry in 10th grade, and I too was exposed to the progressive chronology of atomic theory.

While today I would appreciate it for what you point out, at the time, those lessons were lost on me, and I was a thoughtful kid. I think if the pedagogy were more oriented around the progess of the scientific method, it would have been fantastic.

It seemed misguided, though, in the context of a chemistry chapter on the nature of atoms. Let's also not fail to acknowledge that a gifted teacher can make all the difference in how a given approach might be, and I imagine that the more complex, contextual picture that respects that our understanding is still evolving would be superior in the hands of a gifted teacher.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#92
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Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. Facts are nice, but philosophical debates tend to be about things that are fundamentally unprovable, unobservable, etc. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences and other "hard" disciplines are frustrated by how useless their facts are in solving these debates. As someone with degrees in both a hard science and philosophy I'd say that…

> My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist.

That may not be as true as you think. Notice the high percentages of internalism, libertarianism, and other positions associated with dualism. (Unfortunately, the survey didn't ask flat out about dualism):

http://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applied to Oxford for the 2011 cycle (as an American student), and it is fairly different. Oxford works under the tutorial system. There's a set number of courses and subjects, and every course is specific and roughly fixed. This is basically what the U.S. system calls a major, but you don't generally study anything outside of major. Every class you take is within your course. For the course I applied to, every wee…

>it's generally pretty hard to change courses. I cant speak of Oxford, but I knew several people at Cambridge who changed subjects (sometimes more than once). It's not trivial, but if you want it enough then there isn't much to stop you. (Once you are there then the college's MO is to support your academic success, whatever path it takes). Take-away: don't be put-off applying by this - if you need to change, you can.

Agreed, if you are interested in applying, definitely do so, even if you aren't set on that specific course.

More info: http://www.ousu.org/acaff/undergraduate-specific-information...

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You could absolutely not say this about any two disciples taken at random." I was talking about philosophy and other disciplines, not two disciplines taken at random. With my statement about epistemology, I just meant that most people (incorrectly) believe things like "penicillin works, therefore the monoamine hypothesis must be correct." Of course they don't actually say this, but that's how their thinking works. O…

Ah interesting, I took you up wrongly but your statement was a little ambiguous in my defense. Can you explain what you mean about these logical leaps that smart people take but are wrong-headed, sounds quite intriguing, I have a feeling I know what you mean but I can't articulate it properly.

The idea is that people are using the results of a field to justify its axioms.

For example, all of science rests on the assumptions that the world is as it appears (empiricism), there are no supernatural forces, etc. Why do most people buy into these beliefs so strongly even though there is zero evidence for them? The basic reasoning is that empiricism must be correct because we have iPods, therefore 'science' (scientism) is correct, therefore there is no god, etc. (See also: http://store.xkcd.com/xkcd/#Science)

It's a devastating belief system, because the more books these people read the dumber they get. If you don't believe me just read through some of the Reddit comments on r/atheism. Regardless of whether there is or is not a god, it's clear that the modern atheist movement is basically just a fad for dumb people. (Though from a social and political perspective I think it's a good thing.)

The thing is this doesn't just happen in religious debates, it happens virtually everywhere, but most people just don't realize it. It's funny because modernism as an intellectual movement crashed and burned spectacularly over fifty years ago, but most people (including many highly acclaimed scientists) don't even know it yet.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#95
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good philosophical debates tend to be about things that are, at least currently, unprovable or unobservable. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences are frustrated by how ignorant many philosophers are that the things they're debating have been observed in repeatable experiments and are no longer suitable fodder for philosophical debate.

Have any examples? I'm curious which philosophical problems have been solved by science. Edit: To be fair, I'll provide an example of what I mean. David Chalmer's "hard problem of consciousness" is about why we have qualitative experiences. You can explain all of our brain states in functional ways, like pain's function is to prevent damage, but that would still not answer the question of why pain hurts . I don't thi…

For one simple example, I believe there are still serious incompatibilists/philosophical libertarians--even after experiments showing that physical stimulation of the brain and even transcranial magnetic stimulation can alter perceptions, actions, and even cognitive processes. Daniel Dennett is a great example of a philosopher of mind who takes cognitive neuroscience seriously, but I don't think he's in the majority.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#96
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post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

My mileage did vary. Nobody in modern academic philosophy is a dualist. Facts are nice, but philosophical debates tend to be about things that are fundamentally unprovable, unobservable, etc. I think a lot of people that come from the sciences and other "hard" disciplines are frustrated by how useless their facts are in solving these debates. As someone with degrees in both a hard science and philosophy I'd say that…

When I was in school, there were still some debate about ontology.

That doesn't mean there were serious papers about how much the soul weighs, etc., but rather that some were still puzzling over whether strict materialism is fully satisfying or not.

edit: I now see your comment about Chalmers below. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#97

I tried to sort of create a program like this for myself 15 years ago. I ended up with a B.S. in comp sci and math - with one credit short of a philosophy minor. Unfortunately there were no professors asking the fusion questions, but I did some reading when I could.

That's a real shame. I hope you still keep up to date with philosophical thought.

You might think that philosophy moves very slowly but a few disciplines that have emerged are bio-ethics, deep-ecology, connections between aesthetics and justice and all ground is gone over all the time.

I got a degree in phil. and math. I taught myself how to program and read theoretical comp sci books on data structures and algorithms, operating systems and compiler theory, type theory and symbolic calculus and the church / turing thesis and so on to flesh out the other side but I would dearly love to have been formally taught the comp sci stuff because in truth I went through it all for the love of it and have rarely applied that knowledge :)

I feel like I'm split down the middle, I am delighted that there now exists a course like this. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#98
Hey, get this ...

Maybe Comp. Sci. is too important to be in the "Sciences". What about all those in the humanities that would benefit from knowing how to code and having the basics of knowledge about data structures and algorithms?

I know many numbers of people with history degrees, philosophy degrees (myself included), you name it - who taught themselves how to code because it was impossible for them to take comp sci course as part of humanities.

There is this new field of electronic poetry where poets use the power of computers and the internet to create a new kind of poetry. These people generally come from a background in literature and they are very creative types but they have to enlist the help of graphics designers and programmers to do computer side of things as opposed to the poetic side of things.

It is like literacy. Before the twentieth century pervasive literacy was not the norm. I would argue that computers are nearly too ubiquitous and will only become more and more so that computer literacy is a real hindrance. The option should be there to those that want it.

Computer science, mathematics and logic should inhabit a third academic space in academia I would argue. Science/Engineering, Comp Sci/Math/Logic, Humanities ...

Any takers? :)

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#99
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

It is all a matter of where we stop asking questions. Mostly, good philosophers keep on pushing and end up with something ridiculously hard like Chalmer's hard problem of consciousness. But most of us refuse to recognize that this is even a problem: the brain produces it.

Just because we answer one of (what,when,why,how,where) does not mean the whole problem is solved.

Feynman on a related problem : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM

Unfortunately, this tradition of honest and deep questions and answers has mostly sort of tapered off...

Re: Oxford announces new degree in Computer Science and Philosophy

#100
post #83
post #17

Caveat: this is an anecdote, and your mileage may vary, but I think it illustrates a point of contention in the "two cultures". As a computer science major in the US, I once took a "philosophy of mind" course out of a genuine multi-faceted interest in AI. I was working on undergraduate machine learning research at the time, so I used to pore over the green Norvig/Stewart AI book like a religious text. Unfortunately,…

I apologize if I am bad at articulating this. Philosophy of the Mind is much different from Artificial Intelligence. And it is also much different from Neuroscience. Neuroscience asks 'How does the Brain work?' (Based in biology and chemistry). Artificial intelligence asks 'How do I simulate human intelligence?' (Based in math, and computer science, complexity theory). Philosophy of the mind asks a lot of messy quest…

"when something has been solved by science, philosophers stop worrying about that realm so much"

I think this sums up quite well why philosophy is perceived the way it is. Once something becomes useful it turns into a new field, which explains why it may seem as if philosophy accomplished nothing.

Historically speaking, all (sans math? ~) western science stems from philosophy in its broadest sense.

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