Same story from the Associated Press: “NY regulator vows to investigate Apple Card for sex bias” https://apnews.com/8754cf30526b4b94a3ba6e1cfc1d5054
Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
141–150 of 180 posts
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#142Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure. Let's assume I am very well versed in other pertinent domains of knowledge, like social psychology and the tendency for people to get mad as hell about social justice issues and leap to ugly conclusions that fit their SJW narrative about evil in the world that can be conveniently lumped under a one word heading, like sexism. Let's further assume that this is actually actively counterproductive, so it's reasonab…
There a many people chiming in that they have had the same experience, and nobody saying they had the opposite. If the credit limit difference was unrelated to sex there would be random distribution of couples with the inverse experience. So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems…
So you sayyyy that he flew off the handle because he's an SJW or whatever, but because his initial assumption continues to be proven correct as more data is accumulated... it seems like you are wrong that it was an overreaction.
That's basically a dismissive personal attack.
One of the most frustrating and crazy-making aspects of participating on HN as openly female is the frequency with which one must politely endure phenomenal open disrespect from people trying to position themselves as pro women's lib while violating the guidelines here concerning how to engage respectfully with other members. The only thing more crazy making is that there tends to be hell to pay should a woman dare to point it out or otherwise try to defend herself.
For me, it is made more bearable by the quiet support of the many people who upvote my comments and posts, flag the worst replies and comment thoughtfully on pieces I submit.
Yes, sexism is very much alive and well. I get to experience it on a daily basis.
It still does little to no good for powerful men to engage in public white knighting and level accusations they cannot backup.
I will note we are reading his tweets on HN, not his wife's. We are discussing the opinions of a powerful man, not a woman. We are reading them largely because he is a powerful man, not because he can back up his assertions.
Discussions of this sort are sometimes a case of "two steps forward, one step back." But as a woman participating in them, they all too often feel like a dystopian bit of theater in which men get to claim virtues they don't have and treat a woman badly while loudly proclaiming themselves against this evil thing called sexism.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#144I think he’s making a lot out of nothing, there’s no way really to prove this, and we only have he and his wife as a sample size.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#145Credit card company extends known rich guy tons of credit - news at 11!
Every credit card company probably maintains a list of "big fish" - i.e. famous people - and grants them all a huge credit line.
It's a non-story.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#146One data point really isn't enough to draw a conclusion and I actually doubt it's true. GS is extremely scrupulous when it comes to avoiding liability and they probably put a ton of diligence into their risk model. It's possible there's some emergent gender bias but we'd need a better show of proof.
> One data point really isn't enough to draw a conclusion My wife's credit history is longer and historically her score higher because I used no revolving credit until recently, and not using credit cards counts against you. Also married filing jointly... For the Apple Card, I was given her limit several times over. I did notice that the expected limit is shown before the hard pull on credit. This means they've got a…
Do you remember which one of you applied for it first?
To me it seems odd that married couples, filing jointly, get separate credit limits from each other at all. Aren't you one economic entity?
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure. Let's assume I am very well versed in other pertinent domains of knowledge, like social psychology and the tendency for people to get mad as hell about social justice issues and leap to ugly conclusions that fit their SJW narrative about evil in the world that can be conveniently lumped under a one word heading, like sexism. Let's further assume that this is actually actively counterproductive, so it's reasonab…
Also in compliance training, as mentioned in a different reply to you, we talk about disparate impact. As I'm sure you can guess, this principle implies that sexism can be thought of as an outcome, not just the result of explicitly "evil" attitudes. In other words, I think he's right to say that Apple should be accountable for the issue he has pointed out, regardless of how it happened, which you rightly point out th…
I desperately wish that I knew a different word for the negative impacts that harm the lives of so many women. Both allies and others seem incapable of hearing that I would like to see better outcomes when the only word available is sexism. To far too many people, that words means "It's done on purpose by evil people with a heart of darkness." This actively interferes with effective communication because "good guy" ally types don't ever want to hear that some behavior of theirs is part of the problem and needs to change.
It helps make the problem insanely intractable.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Women tend to have lower incomes and lower net worths. Here is a recent article squeeing about women finally being willing to buy homes on their own: https://realestate.usnews.com/real-estate/articles/the-rise-... One of the statistics in it: Single women can only afford about 39% of homes. Single men can afford more than half. Historically, couples with traditional marriages (primary breadwinner husband, wife whose…
Yeah. It wasn't that long ago the mortgage industry was rife with blatant gender discrimination, which contributed to this issue. I've learned this from the compliance training at the mortgage lender where I currently work.
I don't doubt it, but I think it's far more complicated than that. I think a great deal of potentially low hanging fruit is actively overlooked by the tendency the world has to go looking for ill intent.
In cases where the explanation is something like "No, seriously, she simply cannot afford it." efforts to root out presumed bias are not only unhelpful, they are actively counterproductive.
I need more income. Period. If you were to approve me for a mortgage this minute for the $550k building I desire, I simply cannot make the payments. It's not going to fix anything.
First, get me the money. That's the one thing no one on this planet seems seriously willing to help me with and there is always some BS excuse.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
It could, realistically, be almost anything except for evil bankers deciding to use illegal criteria FTA: “My belief isn’t there was some nefarious person wanting to discriminate. But that doesn’t matter. How do you know there isn’t an issue with the machine-learning algo when no one can explain how this decision was made?”
They can explain, they most likely don't want to. Also how does this guy know this is a "machine-learning algo" and not just a series of ifs and elses?
It’s much more likely a series of ifs and else’s, not a fancy ML model. Companies have been doing automatic credit decisions for decades and there’s no evidence that GS bank is doing anything different than all the others.
Re: Viral Tweet About Apple Card Leads to Goldman Sachs Probe
#150The original Twitter thread is still being updated, and it's a doozy. This is not an isolated incident. https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1193240508845510656 https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1193242909111398401
Jikes. I appreciate DHH for his open source contributions, but this is straight up embarrassing. The sample size for his claims here is exactly 1. There are probably hundreds of data points that go into the algo that determines the initial credit limit. It could be literally anything, from the number of existing CCs in her name, her credit history, whatever. Stop crying, stop bitching, grow up.
Exactly. Since it's a community property state, maybe they took into consideration the existing credit limit they already extended to the household.