Earlier quoted context omitted.
You would be surprised, if managament is broken to it's core, the situation is "Do this unethical thing or we'll find someone who will!" Computer Scientists aren't usually taught engineering ethics and definitely get fired all the time for arbitrary reasons.
Is that true that CS students don't take an ethics course? I have a 10 year old SE degree and I took 3, only 1 of which was engineering specific. (I took a philosophy ethics course, which really isn't that relevant to issues like these anyway, but also a course that was specific to ethical issues in computing.) OTOH, I'm skeptical those courses change behavior, and in this particular case others in comments are sayin…
Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
191–199 of 199 posts
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#192Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I agree that the aviation industry hiding behind the streak of years of no accidents has contributed to how bad Boeing became. They were using that statistic as a shield and a hammer to justify further deregulation. This is a great example of how looking at the world through the prism of stats really limits your understanding of what's actually happening.
That is a cynical way of interpreting the situation, and let's be clear, you have no basis for claiming this.
The fact that you find my post novel and shocking just shows you're not reading very much about aviation in the past few months.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#193Earlier quoted context omitted.
tl;dr : The Kruger-Dunning effect is most visible in the upper-management circles, where politics and charismatic talents are necessary skills. Former engineering powerhouses like HP, Boeing, and IBM slowly get hollowed-out into incompetence when it’s assumed that Engineering and technical skills don’t require a considerable depth of knowledge and experience.
profound! could it also be the normal generational rotation of people through the organization? Everyone grew at a tremendous rate since the 1960's. Many, many more engineers. And then they retired.
The most effective leadership for a technical company is leadership with actual technical creds to back it up.
The technical side is a must because you need someone who actually understands the business and the innovations that must takes place. But you also need someone who can provide the people-leadership skills and the business wheeling&dealing.
These are all crucial skills and take up a persons time, so it’s not uncommon to see this come in the form of a duo (Apple and Steves, or Microsoft with Bill+Steve).
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#194Earlier quoted context omitted.
Classic case of hitting the date but crunched out with technical debt and buggy software, a tell that management/finance/marketing is driving the decision over the engineer/designer/product people. People forget a project was late if it succeeds, they never forget a project on time that failed because it was rushed, buggy and not polished production. MBA/business and marketing need to go back to letting the product p…
> People forget a project was late if it succeeds, they never forget a project on time that failed because it was rushed, buggy and not polished production. #notallMBAs, but the surest way for your product to fail on the market is for your company to go bankrupt before you’ve polished it enough. In this specific case it was about greed, but sometimes MBAs push for release, because according to the engineering teams t…
Product people and engineers know how to manage time probably better than business because they are doing the work.
If something fails because it doesn't meet the market there are numerous reasons for that besides not hitting the date.
A good product, that hits the date, can still fail due to market timing or market movement and many other things. Whether a project is launched at a certain date has little bearing on the success of that project long term, short term it might meet marketing and financial quarterly goals, but long term success is always better when it is a good product, and for it to be a good product the people that make products and create value should determine or at least have some say when it is complete and ready.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#195Earlier quoted context omitted.
In which case American would have bought exclusively new A320neo's. Boeing was caught flat-footed and underinvested in a new product in 2011. So while Boeing management could have said "No" to their largest (?) customer, that would have been a hard decision to make. And probably would have led to the board chopping C* heads for breach of fiduciary duty.
It's still Boeing's fault. They're the ones that designed and built the damn thing. AA just asked for it; they didn't decide on the specific engineering defects that killed two planeloads of people. Of course every customer ever is always going to ask for products on a faster timeline at a cheaper price. That doesn't absolve the manufacturer of its responsibility to build a safe product.
And I'd be inclined to agree it's 100% manufacturer fault... except this was a pretty high pressure ask.
IMHO, for me, it crosses over the line into sharing some of the blame.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#196Earlier quoted context omitted.
But that's metallurgical failure, not software, and it's something that's showing up in use almost decades later. I'm saying this to highlight that what you're pointing out, while not desired, is kinda expected. That's the point of the routine inspection and maintenance - to catch these. It's not the same as the conversation we're having under the OP: catastrophic failure due to bad assumptions in software (in this c…
> I'm saying this to highlight that what you're pointing out, while not desired, is kinda expected. If it was expected, it wouldn't be newsworthy. And metallurgical issues in Boeing planes can be as critical as software issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0&t=36m16s
> And metallurgical issues in Boeing planes can be as critical as software issues:
This much is obvious, and it's exactly why the maintenance exists. Crashes happen; the precursors are baked right into new processes and procedures. When said processes pick up on similar symptoms in the future, it might be in the news for a day or two, and then it disappears because it's expected.
The precise problem with the MAX is that there's an entire body of knowledge around the MCAS and other automation included with the plane that was never shared, which meant that unlike metallurgical issues which in many cases are largely unforeseen, Boeing's problems here were entirely preventable.
Items that stay in the news for a while tend to be the novel things.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#197Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's still Boeing's fault. They're the ones that designed and built the damn thing. AA just asked for it; they didn't decide on the specific engineering defects that killed two planeloads of people. Of course every customer ever is always going to ask for products on a faster timeline at a cheaper price. That doesn't absolve the manufacturer of its responsibility to build a safe product.
My point is that Boeing and American share fault in this. And I don't see anyone blaming American nearly to the extent they are Boeing. And I'd be inclined to agree it's 100% manufacturer fault... except this was a pretty high pressure ask. IMHO, for me, it crosses over the line into sharing some of the blame.
Yeah, because American doesn't deserve blame for this nearly to the extent that Boeing does.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#198Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm saying this to highlight that what you're pointing out, while not desired, is kinda expected. If it was expected, it wouldn't be newsworthy. And metallurgical issues in Boeing planes can be as critical as software issues: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0&t=36m16s
It's not newsworthy. That's why the recent metallurgical stress topic regarding Ryanair's jets rapidly died from the news cycle - because to some extent, it's expected, and it's why maintenance processes exist. A quick search on Google News yielded exactly one recent result, and that was about Ryanair's response to the Guardian article: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ry... > And metallurgic…
At least on three occasions, multiple people have died or were injured because 737 NG planes developed serious cracks after exactly 8 years in service. Nothing like this is expected or considered to be normal. Therefore, when 50 planes of the same type are urgently grounded by multiple airlines in a very short period of time, it's considered to be newsworthy.
> The precise problem with the MAX is that there's an entire body of knowledge around the MCAS and other automation included with the plane that was never shared, which meant that unlike metallurgical issues which in many cases are largely unforeseen, Boeing's problems here were entirely preventable.
The previous metallurgical issues in 737 NG were also entirely preventable:
https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/peopleandpower/2010/12/...
That makes the real source of any new issues with 737 NG questionable.
My point is, that MAX and MCAS is not the first instance of Boeing's negligence. And new things that went wrong with 737 NG might still be discovered.
Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator
#199Earlier quoted context omitted.
They absolutely can with the right amount of funding to maintain attractiveness. The regulator should be adversarial; period. A well-meaning adversary, but adversarial never the less. Cutting manufacturers as much slack as has been is exactly what got us to the point we're at; a regulator that collected rubber stamped reports and only heard about things going wrong after tragedy has already struck. It is better to ha…
I didn't argue a regulator should be rubber stamping anything. What's with the strawman?
>but you can't expect a regulator to shoulder the core responsibility of certifying a plane. The primary responsibility is always going to be on the manufacturer because no regulator will ever have the manpower to test and verify everything nor the deep visibility into to R&D process that a manufacturer would.
In a financially incentivized market-based system where a fiduciary responsibility is built into the very underlying fabric of the corporate calculus, you cannot afford to be blind to the fact that a market actor has every reason and opportunity to stuff off every cost they can to improve their bottom line. This is why we need regulators in the first place, due to opposing optimizations between the interests of shareholders/executives, and the public.
The FAA as a regulator must be capable of requesting and having delivered any piece of information relevant to the goal of airframe certification. It is the job of the manufacturer to satisfy the regulator as to the objective safety of the plane, and it is the regulator's job to ensure nothing is left out for expediency sake. When regulator's start talking about streamlining things for the regulated, I start to get worried.
To go into more detail, no; I do not see the FAA adopting the actual physical task or logistics of testing a plane; however, I do see them as the final authority in terms of "Is the design complete" and "is your testing sufficient?"
This means that an Engineer, free of the inherent bias that comes from being dependent on the manufacturer for their paycheck, and acting in the public's interest as an external agent, needs to be as fully briefed on the entirety of the operating and physical details of every plane. It doesn't need to be the same person with it all; but the point is between the FAA as an external agency, and the manufacturer, there should be two independent agencies with enough understanding of the product that it can be demonstrated the manufacturer has done their due disclosure in informing the flying public of every facet of the aircraft's behavior that nothing like the MAX boondoggle should ever even be considered as being a reasonable course of action ever again.
You had people inside Bboeing who couldn't understand why MCAS was the way it was. Given that, it is evident that the most important stakeholders in being fully informed (buyers and operators) as a consequence were also not informed before regulators cut Boeing loose to sell on the market.
In 2018, legislation was passed that made it even more difficult for the FAA to exercise it's purported authority so long as a corporate representative assured them the issue was being handled internally.
I do expect anyone in an oversight position to be capable of observing things within their purview; and in terms of evaluating designs, the tangible nature of the principles and forces involved with aviation should be conducive to clear communication and reproducibility between the manufacturer and the regulator. The difference to a business in a functioning regulatory regime is that the manufacturer should see it's job as revealing new ground to a regulator, and leveraging the regulator as the source of of friction that peels away any uncertainty from the design. This can only happen in an environment where a "no more secrets" approach to business is maintained.