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Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

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Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#101

Post by meristem »

lisper wrote: post #97

This article is incoherent: > “It’s really complicated,” John Hansman, an aeronautics and astronautics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is not involved in the repair, said of revising aircraft software. “It totally makes sense why it’s taking longer.” But then... > While the fix became more complex and politically charged after the second accident -- the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet on…

Read it as patching MCAS would be the grad students over the weekend fix, and the really hard stuff as redesigning avionics logic.

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#102

Post by nradov »

speeder wrote: post #17
MobileVet wrote: post #4

Considering that MCAS is an added ‘feature’ to avoid stall, you would think they could just remove it and be done. After all, it wasn’t part of the original 737. Sadly, from my limited understanding, due to the engine location change on the airframe, the plane naturally pitches up... making it necessary. One thing seems clear to the external observer, this is a 737 in name only.

Well, it IS a 737, that is part of the problem. The 737 has a feature almost no other new plane have: you can order it with a internal staircase so people can leave the plane without a specialized airport terminal. This feature requires the plane to keep its current overall shape, otherwise the staircase thingy would not work. So to keep this feature, while putting a bigger engine on the plane, they had to move the e…

The 737 MAX 10 has taller (extending) landing gear. Not sure if the airstairs will still be an option.

https://www.boeing.com/features/2018/08/737max10-landing-gea...

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#103

Post by lisper »

meristem wrote: post #101
lisper wrote: post #97

This article is incoherent: > “It’s really complicated,” John Hansman, an aeronautics and astronautics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is not involved in the repair, said of revising aircraft software. “It totally makes sense why it’s taking longer.” But then... > While the fix became more complex and politically charged after the second accident -- the crash of an Ethiopian Airlines jet on…

Read it as patching MCAS would be the grad students over the weekend fix, and the really hard stuff as redesigning avionics logic.

OK, fair enough, but the complete redesign is only necessary because the simple patch didn't work, so the grad-student-in-a-couple-of-days comment is vacuous.

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#104

Post by uxp100 »

SQueeeeeL wrote: post #99
dboreham wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a huge MAX skeptic, but this article just has to be wrong. Someone who had dropped out of a CS degree would know not to do what the article says they're doing.

You would be surprised, if managament is broken to it's core, the situation is "Do this unethical thing or we'll find someone who will!" Computer Scientists aren't usually taught engineering ethics and definitely get fired all the time for arbitrary reasons.

Is that true that CS students don't take an ethics course? I have a 10 year old SE degree and I took 3, only 1 of which was engineering specific. (I took a philosophy ethics course, which really isn't that relevant to issues like these anyway, but also a course that was specific to ethical issues in computing.)

OTOH, I'm skeptical those courses change behavior, and in this particular case others in comments are saying this is a common architecture in the space, so how could anyone solve this ethical conundrum if getting to the base level of whether this is an ethical conundrum to begin with is difficult?

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#105

Post by madengr »

thisisnico wrote: post #8
Yizahi wrote: post #7

If I understand correctly "fixing" MCAS would be quick but audit found out more problems and Boeing started basically a refactoring of their computer architecture (including hardware changes) which itself takes a lot of time and didn't pass new audit yet.

Didn't I read from another hacker news poster that the software engineering and design was outsourced? Anyone know?

Probably multiple levels of outsourcing. Boeing > Collins > Indian for $9/hr.

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#106

Post by SQueeeeeL »

uxp100 wrote: post #104
SQueeeeeL wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be surprised, if managament is broken to it's core, the situation is "Do this unethical thing or we'll find someone who will!" Computer Scientists aren't usually taught engineering ethics and definitely get fired all the time for arbitrary reasons.

Is that true that CS students don't take an ethics course? I have a 10 year old SE degree and I took 3, only 1 of which was engineering specific. (I took a philosophy ethics course, which really isn't that relevant to issues like these anyway, but also a course that was specific to ethical issues in computing.) OTOH, I'm skeptical those courses change behavior, and in this particular case others in comments are sayin…

In my opinion courses wouldn't change behavior, modern computer science is designed to infantalize coders and make them interchangeable. Think of all the effort startups put into marketing themselves as "COOL TO WORK FOR"/"WE HAVE BEER ON FRIDAYS". These reinforce the idea that you are small and need management to tell you exactly what to do everyday, because you're a dumb idiot who spends all day watching anime and playing video games.

In that environment, serious ethical concerns could easily be brushed aside as "coders just being coders". When Google got found out for making drones, the employees of a company staged a 5 minute walkout.... that was it, I'm sure some people quit, but not enough to make any impact

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#107

Post by madengr »

peteradio wrote: post #61
thisisnico wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't I read from another hacker news poster that the software engineering and design was outsourced? Anyone know?

Outsourcing is a symptom of the real issue. I don't think outsourcing necessarily causes these problems. Subjugating engineering to a lower class and elevating politics/accounting doesn't really generate great engineered products, go figure.

As an engineer in the defense/aero industry, this is so true. Legal, HR, and IT run everything, with the engineering staff shat upon.

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#109

Post by AnimalMuppet »

SkyBelow wrote: post #65
dhimes wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tough shit. Index funds may take a hit, but better a market crash than and airline crash.

How many people actually agree? Yes, if you ask them, the social costs and gains of each answer being given means most will disagree. But is that actually what we value more when their isn't a social cost to being honest with the 'wrong' answer? Is that what our actions speak too? I think we live in a world that puts a value on the plane crash and sees a certain level of cost from plane crashes as acceptable in the p…

The thing is, if they don't actually get it right, and another plane crashes, the stock is going to take a massive hit. So even if all you care about is the stock price, you have to get the fix right.

Re: Delays in Boeing Max Return Began with Near-Crash in Simulator

#110

Post by krn »

eganist wrote: post #18
krn wrote: post #11

There are also issues with 737 NG[1]: > At least three Ryanair Boeing 737s have been grounded due to cracks between the wing and fuselage but this was not disclosed to the public, the Guardian can reveal. > The budget Irish airline is the latest to be affected by faults in the “pickle fork” structure, which has sparked an urgent grounding of 50 planes globally since 3 October. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business…

But that's metallurgical failure, not software, and it's something that's showing up in use almost decades later. I'm saying this to highlight that what you're pointing out, while not desired, is kinda expected. That's the point of the routine inspection and maintenance - to catch these. It's not the same as the conversation we're having under the OP: catastrophic failure due to bad assumptions in software (in this c…

> I'm saying this to highlight that what you're pointing out, while not desired, is kinda expected.

If it was expected, it wouldn't be newsworthy. And metallurgical issues in Boeing planes can be as critical as software issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0&t=36m16s

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