Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there • Hacker News Board

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#281

Post by prawn » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #247

Animats wrote: post #177

Think of it as the end of rural sprawl. Most small towns were built to support surrounding farming and ranching. Once that stopped being labor-intensive, the small towns lost their economic reason for being. Farming today is something like 1.2% of the US workforce. Most of the income in many small towns is now from Social Security, disability, and welfare for the people who didn't leave. In time, they will die off. T…

There need to be towns in picturesque locations (Been to western Wyoming, it's basically that non-stop) supported by industry other than agriculture. The ability to remote work should draw a subset of developers and other workers into the area as long as the corresponding infrastructure has been met. Especially for self contracting / employed software engineers.

Maybe someone should create a bit of a tech-oriented template for helping it happen - core element checklist and then ways to invite/entice the rest. Start with decent internet, get some keystone employers, operate out of a co-working space that also brings a cafe/bar to the area. Let the residents of a community vote for what they'd like to see added to the mix of businesses.

Then let entrepreneurs scour town lists for the need that interests them. "I want to paint houses. These two towns in my state need a painter." Or "I moved to this town with my partner; the community is begging for a small garden store - I can do that."

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#282

Post by nine_k » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 4:29 AM UTC

techsupporter wrote: post #188

CalRobert wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It occurs to us, but doing tech work remote is much more lucrative and reliable. Also, are you sure people want it? If so why do these stores close?

> If so why do these stores close? Because for every one or two fantastically wealthy-beyond-all-belief-for-the-area technologist who moves in, five people who don't have a job like that leave the region in search of something that pays an income. A lot of these bucolic rural areas with a few thousand people in a county exist because of an industry that was present decades ago that has now collapsed. So, sure, the pr…

If enough people with six-figure incomes moved in to a small town, they could revive a grocery store there.

The problem is that they try to live as much away from other such people as possible, to keep the low prices and the feeling of living in an extremely uncrowded countryside.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#283

Post by vanniv » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 4:42 AM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #220

weberc2 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think I know any “rural person” who is complaining or even speaks about “being left behind”. Just my data point, but I grew up in rural America and still have lots of connections, so your claim is, uh, surprising to say the least. Maybe the impression of “rural Americans” you received while in the Bay Area / Munich was less than accurate?

Seriously? A huge cultural meme when it comes to Trump being elected was this idea that rural America was disaffected and disheartened because it had been 'left behind' economically. Another example, every once in a while you'll see an article or a politician talking about what a tragedy it is that broadband is more expensive/worse in rural America, and how we need to, say, support some government program to fix that…

I'd say it's less about feeling "left behind" and more about feeling like they're being attacked and hated.

Whether that's the kind of "attacked" that sounds like Obama saying they "cling to their guns and their religion" (that is, personal attacks), or the kind of attack where policies are created intentionally to harm them (like subsidizing international shipping and trade, or free trade deals which had the direct consequence of shipping many of their jobs overseas).

Of course, like all topics, the truth is more complicated than the meme, but these are the kinds of feelings you'll hear about if you start listening to Trump voters.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#284

Post by austhrow743 » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 4:43 AM UTC

core-questions wrote: post #225

bgorman wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we be subsidizing rural communities with free services that are terrible for the environment? If people want the benefits of modern civilization like air travel and grocery stores, they should move to cities. We are doing enough harm to the world in cities, we don't need to encourage sprawl even more.

Have you ever, like, left the city, man? Do you really think everyone can just live in the city without anyone out in the rural areas, you know, growing your fucking food?

They get paid money for that fucking food.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#285

Post by adrianN » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 4:54 AM UTC

Bartweiss wrote: post #38

refurb wrote: post #18

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Stores like Walmart and Dollar stores opened up, and consumer made the choice to shop there rather than at local grocery stores . Sounds like they are getting exactly what they wanted? Reminds me of folks in SF who bemoan the loss of a local butcher store. Sure, they may like buying organic cuts of meat at $15/lb, but it's obviously most people don't, that's why those stores we…

Exactly this. The article somehow skips from "the grocery store closed" to "we need to open a new one" with almost no attention to what would be different the second time around. (If I may be cynical, the extensive focus on co-ops and community markets makes me think the reporter assumed the old grocery stores just weren't sufficiently profitable, and didn't ask whether they were even solvent.) It has one line which…

An effective way of stopping people from driving an hour to save 5% off their grocery bill is making driving more expensive. Raise gas taxes to European levels and people will think twice before burning 10$ worth of gas to save 10$ on food.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#286

Post by adrianN » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 5:00 AM UTC

driverdan wrote: post #218

mschuster91 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mom-and-pop stores cannot reasonably compete with Walmart or any other chain store. Their suppliers charge more because they lack the volume for the discounts the big stores charge, they lack the skills/manpower/IT to purchase, stock and maintain the thousands of products in a big store, and last but not least mom-and-pop stores don't get the massive tax breaks and other incentives/bribes that the state provides…

Your description makes it sound like Walmart is better in every way.

Every way except keeping the profits in the local economy.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#287

Post by adrianN » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 5:01 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #232

" About 5 million people in rural areas have to travel 10 miles or more to buy groceries, according to the Department of Agriculture" is that supposed to sound like a lot? It's probably a 12 minute drive. I know people who drive 60 miles to and from work every day in Texas without batting an eye.

It's a lot for people who can't drive, like children or the elderly.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#288

Post by OnlineGladiator » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 5:34 AM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #228

elihu wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to have at least some people living in small towns and sparsely populated areas to produce food and manage natural resources that cities depend on.

Then the government can pay the people in rural areas enough cash to fly in food, or enough to pay for prices high enough to make it worthwhile to open a grocery store. Costs should be as transparent as possible. If there is low supply and high demand, you can increase supply by moving the prices up. Alternatively, people in rural areas have to charge far more money for what they sell.

Everything you say sounds good in theory, until you spend a bit of time studying the history of economic policies. It's...really fucking complicated, which is why nobody really knows what they're doing (I mean how many people can predict when the stock market will crash?). But what you're proposing is the sort of thing that works with a small group of people, but then as you scale more and more you realize there are so many complicating factors you never thoughts of - not just resources but political alliances! Oftentimes there are military reasons for these justifications. One of the reasons high-fructose corn syrup is subsidized in the United States is so the US would not be dependent upon Cuba for its sugar supply back when Cuba was a communist country. One of the main motivations of the international freeway system is emergency runways for military planes. And while many subsidies are controversial, such as corn and soy, nobody can deny that we have all the corn and soy we need and it's all affordable - which was always the goal.

The truth about subsidies is simple: they're too fucking complicated to make meaningful generalizations. Each case really is unique enough it needs its own context, analysis, and decision for what's best.

I agree with your sentiment, but I encourage you to really dive into the details of any economic subsidy and realize how many confounding factors there are. There's the old economics joke "it works in practice, but not in theory" for a reason.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#289

Post by dbcurtis » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 5:36 AM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #229

During WWII, the government urged urban citizens to plant Victory Gardens so that farmed produce could go to the troops. Home and community plots resulted in an estimated 10 million tons of harvested produce, equal to the commercial production of the time. The cause of these food deserts must be addressed, but in the mean time, I think a return to the Victory Garden would be useful (assuming it doesn't work too well…

I suggest you do the math. My mother was a fanatical gardener and food preserver, so I know full well how much land it takes to grow enough produce to feed a family for a year from a season's frozen/canned produce. I personally did a lot of literal spade work (and harvest work) to make it happen.

A couple of window boxes will about cover 1/4 of your need for herbs(1). I am not sure how big mom's gardens (plural) were, but I would guess an acre or so all together.

Really, it isn't hard to do the math. There are a zillion books on gardening that address space planning starting from your desired yield estimate. It isn't difficult math -- my mom taught it to a herd of 4-H kids over the years, and as the 4-H garden judge at the county fair expected your notebook to include the computations.

So, I encourage you to grow a Victory Garden. Tell us how that works out for you. I guarantee that at least some of the food that you grow will be astoundingly good. Not everyone finds the process satisfying, though.

The ironic thing is that the farm country we are talking about in this thread is exactly where mom's gardens were, and gardens were common in the day. But not any more -- people would rather work at Walmart, and buy their canned corn there, than grow it and can it themselves. The rural economy has changed -- at least the farm country economy -- because it is rare to be able to make a living full-time farming any more.

(1) Never trust a sentence with the word "just" in it.

Re: Farm country feeds America, but try buying groceries there

#290

Post by PopeDotNinja » Wed, Nov 06, 2019, 5:37 AM UTC

nmcfarl wrote: post #115

genieyclo wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity: why did you choose to live in such a remote/rural place?

stevehawk's reasons are not far off. I'd add that my wife really loves the scope of practice - she does literally everything from delivering babies (w/an occasional C-section) to gerontology, from addiction medicine to ER. This just doesn't happen elsewhere. And we like the space. The road we live on ends in a wilderness area, the hiking and X-C skiing and so on is amazing. And both us and our 6 year old love having…

I just looked at the dining options in John Day, OR. I see a pizza place, a Subway, and a Dairy Queen. That covers my needs :)