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German government expands subsidies for electric cars

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Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#121

Post by Bombthecat »

dillz wrote: post #22

Blatant and obvious lobbying by the extremely powerful German car industry. The subsidy includes premium brand plug-in hybrids such as BMW 330e and Mercedes C class - i.e. typical company cars that will very rarely use the electric engine. As gibolt mentioned, it also helps VW selling their new models. Why not subsidize public transport instead? Why has the German government been unable to make (useful) climate prote…

Germany is like Houston but worse...

But on the other side. Evs have an henn and egg problem. People need charging stations. Firms need an incitive to build them.

And I think even hybrid are shitty all around. They create the demand for charging stations without being 100 percent depend on them. So they can be build and get used..

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#122

Post by thinkcontext »

dillz wrote: post #117
thinkcontext wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any numbers that back up what percentage of German driving is covered by what you are talking about? I gave numbers for average German driving, therefore more than 50% of German driving trips can be handled with no gas by a plugin hybrid. This cannot be considered "rarely" as was your original contention. Even your 60 mile example, 1/3 of the distance being covered by electric is not "rarely". Do plugin h…

You are right, the average car trip is covered by plugin hybrids. I was referring to business trips, i.e. the typical clientele of the car types in my OP. The average business driving distance (not commute) is twice the average of all drives. (source: Chapter 3.2 in [1]) If only businessmen/fieldstaff/etc. are taken into account and no craftsmen/tradesmen numbers would be even higher. (read: drivers of said premium h…

I stand by my contention that 1/3 of a 60 mile trip being run on electric is not "rare".

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#123

Post by dna_polymerase »

daddylonglegs wrote: post #107
dna_polymerase wrote: post #2

> The German government and car industry have agreed to increase joint subsidies for the purchase of electric cars on the same day automobile giant Volkswagen began production of a new all-electric vehicle. The way that company fucks Germany over and over is truly remarkable. Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, now after all that they let the taxpayer fund their infrastructure. I bet their solution…

> Paid no penalties for the whole Dieselgate in Germany, German prosecutors have charged VW's former CEO and some other executives [1]. I think it's very rare for bigwigs to be held personally responsible for pollution anywhere in the world so I see this as a refreshing change. The company itself paid a fine in Germany (one billion, I think) and has paid fines in other countries, as well as recalling a lot of cars. A…

VW penalties:

- 5 million, the maximum for this misdemeanor "Ordnungswidrigkeit",

- 995 million levy of infringer's profits.

Given that they couldn't have sold their cars if the real emission values would have been known that number is ridiculously low (we are talking about 10 million cars sold between 2007 and 2015).

Now the article mentions 3.5 billion will be invested in electric vehicle infrastructure subsidies.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#124

Post by WhompingWindows »

gibolt wrote: post #15

It is pretty blatant that they are increasing it by 50% to support Volkswagen's conversion to electric. Most of the other comments seem quite negative. It is protectionism, but it applies to most electric cars and is a step in the right direction. It is late and selfish, but better than the alternative.

It may have some cronyism to it, but so does the way China massively subsidizes its green tech. In the end, we want to support EVs and get the transition going as fast as we can, and this policy will help somewhat.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#125

Post by heisenbergs »

heyYouD wrote: post #45
gibolt wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's lower-end Model 3s fall in that range. Tesla will be announcing their European Gigafactory soon (most likely in Germany), so it is in Germany's best interest to make Teslas more attainable as well. It will increase local jerbs and decrease carbon emissions.

The most likely placement of the factory is actually in Poland, just east of Germany. It's a great place to have factories, right next door to Germany, and the wider Europe. I'd say Poland is the main candidate for where they'll place anything. Close enough and so much cheaper. Not involved with any of this! Poland stronk. We love Poland in any case.

Not according to Musk and his tweets. The Dutch/French/German border area is what he stated the likely candidate. Plus Tesla Grohman and Tesla EU HQ are nearby.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#126

Post by Proven »

gibolt wrote: post #15

It is pretty blatant that they are increasing it by 50% to support Volkswagen's conversion to electric. Most of the other comments seem quite negative. It is protectionism, but it applies to most electric cars and is a step in the right direction. It is late and selfish, but better than the alternative.

If you can justify blatant theft like that, you can probably justify worse crimes too

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#127

Post by nicpottier »

24gttghh wrote: post #49
Vysero wrote: post #35

I would love to be able to buy an electric car here in Montana (US) but how would I charge it? Either way I couldn't afford it. Even at a conservative estimate of 20k that's still too much considering I can go out and buy a used car that gets 20mpg for 5k and keep it for the next 100k miles. I realize this is a bit off topic but I get so bitter when I heard about other countries converting to electric. I just wish so…

No offense, but what hypothetical car are you buying for $5K that will last another 100K miles? You can get used Nissan Leaf's in the price-range you're wanting. In Spokane tho I guess... https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?dealerTy... Or used Prius's in Missoula: https://www.missoulanissan.com/VehicleSearchResults?search=p... edit: I am genuinely curious about the $5K car good for 100K miles.

All sorts of post 2000 cars from reliable brands. Cars last well into 200k miles these days. I drive a 2001 Outback with 198k miles on it. Purchased 5 years ago for ~$3700 and besides brake pads and oil haven't spent any money on it.

This is the biggest barrier to electric IMO. I'm planning on getting a Tesla but it makes absolutely no economic sense.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#128

Post by zaroth »

Tepix wrote: post #65
radicalbyte wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I see driving around in Tesla (or large Audi/Volvo) here aren't really rich, more have a decent job and a willingness to spend a substantial amount of money on a car. I don't understand it personally, I prefer cycling and having my mortgage paid off but everyone to their own :) I guess if you're in your 50s then you paid very little for your house so it makes sense to pay the 1200 EUR a month net for a car…

If you can afford a car for 60k € you are among the top 10% richest persons on the planet.

I mean, generally I do not disagree, but that makes a lot of assumptions about depreciation rate, interest rate, and OpEx.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#129

Post by newnewpdro »

devmunchies wrote: post #111
newnewpdro wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Motorcycles will never be as safe as cars, period. Source: an experienced rider with over 100,000 miles riding all over the USA and teacher of multiple new riders.

Duh, man. Not once did I say they were safer than cars. > over 100,000 miles riding all over the USA Yeah that's actually a good argument for not subsidizing them since it encourages non-green behavior—driving all over the country on joy rides.

> Yeah that's actually a good argument for not subsidizing them since it encourages non-green behavior—driving all over the country on joy rides.

More people road-trip in cars than motorcycles.

Even among motorcyclists, in the US it's been more common to transport bikes across the country to attend events like Sturgis, Bikeweek, or to ride "the tail of the dragon", than do the trips on two wheels.

My extensive touring on two wheels is the exception not the norm, it's fairly unusual, uncomfortable, unsafe, expensive, and inconvenient. This activity isn't even a blip on the environmental impact radar, and never will be.

Motorcycles are firmly in recreational use territory, promoting them from an environmental perspective is utterly misguided. People will often be buying them in addition to other more practical and safe vehicles. It's just more consumerism, they'll never represent a bulk of miles traveled nation-wide, but will always cost resources to manufacture.

I grew up in the midwest where there's quite a lot of "lifestyle" bikers, their garage queen bikes are ridden so little you can arbitrage buying barely used bikes from the midwest by selling them on the coasts.

Re: German government expands subsidies for electric cars

#130

Post by jlg23 »

richardknop wrote: post #63
thinkcontext wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla Model 3 has a base price of 44.5K EUR. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/13/tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-3-...

That's an expensive car in European standards. 20k is what most people pay for a car here. 45k car is a luxury imho.

Which Europe are you talking about? 20k gets you a halfway decent Dacia at best...
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