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Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

stephendiehl.com

91–100 of 347 posts

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws and regulations in Europe have managed to make wire transfers and card payments cheap and efficient for both consumers and businesses.

It's not that cheap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash#Costs You may think 0.3% isn't much, but with razor-thin profit margins (e.g. groceries) it does make a difference.

Handling cash isn't necessarily cheap either.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#92
What's the profit potential for Facebook here, especially above using an existing cryptocurrency for payments on their platforms?

Having low friction payments on Facebook makes sense, it build value into the platform and Facebook can capture some of that. But can't they do that with an existing cryptocurrency?

It doesn't seem like Facebook will maintain full control of the currency due to the consensus algorithm. There is power and control if Facebook continues to control the fork of the code base that everyone uses, but presumably nodes could choose to switch away from Facebook's fork. So I'm not seeing "control a currency" as a long term benefit.

It makes sense that anyone running a Libra node would make money, but anyone else running a node would make similar profit.

The article mentions that a long term goal could be "act as a data broker and mediate consumers access to credit", although again, doesn't the decentralized nature permit any node from taking those steps? That doesn't seem to uniquely advantage Facebook.

As others mention, once a cryptocurrency is "too big to fail", regulators are locked out. Is Libra really an easier approach to getting a cryptocurrency to that point, versus adopting and accelerating the growth of an existing coin (like Bitcoin)?

Does Facebook just think they can build a better cryptocurrency? I don't doubt that they can hire good engineers, but with all the politics and marketing focus on the code now, development is probably getting stressful and chaotic.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#93

This ignores the big problems in Facebook's Libra: 1) It charges ECONOMIC RENTS. The ethical asset backed and currency backed stable coin needs to pass profits from revenue generating assets to the currency holder. The member companies should only take a tiny slice of the profits. This is the MASSIVE problem. 2) Libra is designed that ECONOMIC RENTS will be sharecropped and sent to the member companies. This will be…

There's no problem here at all. Financial transactions are already providing "rent" to the established players.

In particular, you should consider the ludicrous fees that the unbanked are paying for basic services.

More competition is only going to drive that rent down further towards marginal cost.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#94

> Not many people who work on financial infrastructure speak publicly about their work... This was a bit of a throw away line, but I found it insightful. As someone who isn't in this space, my question is: why is this? Is it contractual, or is that just not part of the space's ethos? Feels like we need to overcome this some how to achieve progress?

This is simply not accurate.

I build financial market infrastructure and in the last twelve months I've seen companies in my industry presenting at AWS and Splunk conferences, and a Cassandra meetup.

There are lots of great technologists in the space that are just like the rest of us and love sharing ideas. There are definitely NDAs in place, but "financial infrastructure" generally refers to processing systems, not trading systems. The former is increasingly utilized, while the latter generates alpha (i.e. where you actually make money).

People like sharing ideas about processing infrastructure because everyone benefits when the rest of the market gets better at it also. Your efficiency is only as good as your counterparties' efficiency. If their system breaks, you still have a broken trade that costs you operational time and money no matter how good your infrastructure is.

There is a lot more wrong with what this author wrote, but in the interest of time I'll keep my answer to the question asked.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that cheap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cash#Costs You may think 0.3% isn't much, but with razor-thin profit margins (e.g. groceries) it does make a difference.

Handling cash isn't necessarily cheap either.

Yes, but we're not comparing cash, we're comparing one digital solution to another digital solution. Libra does have the potential to further reduce fees.

Also, in order to use EC, you need a bank account, so it doesn't help the unbanked, which do exist even in Europe.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#96
I've been thinking and it actually makes a lot of sense for new ways to be created to transfer money and pay for things (though I'm highly skeptical of having it operated by Facebook and of the ad-hoc pump-and-dump-prone and whitewashing-and-tax-avoidance-friendly properties of cryptocurrencies). But when you think about it, it's insane that transferring money is something credit cards and payment processors can regularly charge a fee of 1.5-3.0% on. In order to change some numbers in a couple databases... The marginal cost of this ought to be less than pennies. The only reason they can even partially justify this is because of fraud and credit, and the costs associated with dealing with that. But what if we had a way to transfer money between entities that mandated two factor authentication to prevent fraud, and sidestepped the whole credit thing by only working if you had the money? (or required that you took the loan elsewhere, so the account that actually transfers the money does not have to deal with credit at all). Verify that the person is who they claim to be, and that they have the money needed, then do the transaction - no more, no less. No chargebacks, no credit checks, no fraud checks. Why isn't this a thing?

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#97

I don't disagree with the article per se, but I think many technologists are missing the forest for the trees when it comes to the motivations here. Or perhaps they're being charitable and are evaluating Libra on purely on its stated motivations rather than the ulterior motive that Libra can't name out loud. For example, take this quote: "The possibility that a Libra node run by Mastercard or Andressen Horrowitz woul…

> The plan is to build a ledger that no single party (or coalition of parties in a single legal jurisdiction) has the capacity to edit or alter, and to make such alterations so technically challenging that it's beyond the capacity of any single court or legislature to do so.

I'm not seeing why they need a new cryptocurrency for this. If you grow Bitcoin (or any other existing cryptocurrency) to be "too big to fail", it would also have all these properties. Is starting from scratch with zero users easier?

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#98
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, having third parties capable of reversing transactions has an associated cost. But, it’s Billions relative to fraud, so Billions ends up being cheap.

Yeah, for now it's all we have, so I guess the juice is worth the squeeze. But in a world where our cryptocurrencies are a bit more mature I think we can stop being reactive by reversing transactions and start being preventative by using their structure to build chains and webs of trust that make fraud harder to commit up front, rather than just making it harder to get away with.

There are generally 3 kinds of fraud

1. A scammer cheating someone out of their life savings through social engineering

2. A central bank "unjustly" inflating currency and giving the newly printed money to specific industry/people etc

3. A person paying for merchandise with a stolen credit card or refusing payment after services/good is delivered.

Fiat solves 1 and 3 (recovery) does not think 2 is a problem.

Crypto solves 2 and 3. People say it is meant for solving 1.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legacy monetary system may have nice consumer protections on the micro scale, but it fails on the macro scale: 1. Inflation eats 2-4% of everyone's purchasing power each year, disproportionately affecting the poor. This inflation is desired by the central planners. 2. The American system of banking regulations introduces systemic risk into the financial sector. Sure, if you can prove that your transaction was fra…

I’m consistently amazed by how many people here dont understand inflation at all and are confident they need to throw out the financial system before they figure it out. Inflation is an incentive to invest. If you invest in literally anything other than cash under your mattress inflation stops mattering completely to you, and all you have to think about is constant dollar returns. That’s why we have it. So long as yo…

Bitcoin in particular seems to be driven by people who are really obsessed with the idea of having a store of wealth with zero risk (assuming they never make a mistake handling it, or get tricked by swindlers, which I think they're seriously underestimating).

But as you say, inflation is a tool; it motivates investment. Expropriation is a tool; I don't see how eliminating it is appealing at all to the billions of people with no savings at all. They may want to take money from the wealthy at some point.

If there's ever a point where "the masses" really understand bitcoin, and how a few HODLers possess most of it's value, they're not going to want it.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#100
post #37

The answer to the question implied in the article -- why does Libra make such unjustified design decisions -- is simple. Some people have become enamored with blockchain despite it having almost no good use cases, and this certainly isn't one. It seems like a classic example of focusing on the technology rather than on the problem. -- Regardless of the other, far more important sections of this article, I find the se…

I disagree that blockchain has almost no good use cases.

All a blockchain is, is a Merkle tree with a third party that ensures there is only one “main line”. That’s the use case.

All the other stuff — such as having all computers in the network watch every transaction — that’s the wasteful part. There are other ways to have a set of third party validators, that is a subset of the network watching a given merkle tree, simply says which branch is correct. SAFE network uses a Kademlia DHT with various mechanisms to ensure the validators have no say in what they watch and they need to “earn” their way into having any say about anything over time.

There are tons of useful properties, some of which are used in Merkle trees like git:

Immutability

Quick verification of tree membership using Merkle branch

Ability to download different parts from different actors (Bittorent)

Consensus and rule enforcement (eg chess game or any other evolving document)

Smart contracts and autonomous code execution

And much much more. The main problem is when people think of blockchain they think of a giant monolithic chain of blocks each of which contains ALL TRANSACTIONS IN THE NETWORK. This is wasteful.

What’s even more wasteful is when you have divisibility of the tokens, leading to an exponential growth of UTXOs and unlimited storage requirements. And each full node needs to verify the entire history of every transaction because then they get intertwined. That’s the ridiculous part.

And proof of work is the most wasteful thing of all. People need to get off of that!

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