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Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

stephendiehl.com

71–80 of 347 posts

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#71

> Libra has no capacity for consumer protection mechanisms. You can replace Libra quote above with your favorite cryptocurrency and that pretty much sums up what I feel on the crypto space.

The legacy monetary system may have nice consumer protections on the micro scale, but it fails on the macro scale: 1. Inflation eats 2-4% of everyone's purchasing power each year, disproportionately affecting the poor. This inflation is desired by the central planners. 2. The American system of banking regulations introduces systemic risk into the financial sector. Sure, if you can prove that your transaction was fra…

I’m consistently amazed by how many people here dont understand inflation at all and are confident they need to throw out the financial system before they figure it out.

Inflation is an incentive to invest. If you invest in literally anything other than cash under your mattress inflation stops mattering completely to you, and all you have to think about is constant dollar returns. That’s why we have it. So long as your wages track inflation (broadly they do) you benefit from implicit depreciation in your debt obligations. It costs you nothing if you don’t hold cash like you’re supposed to, and it costs you effectively nothing if you hold money in a savings account as many offer 1.8% interest these days, matching inflation.

What nobody arguing for a deflationary currency can tell me is why they think money should be worth more later solely by virtue of them having gotten it first. A risk-free guaranteed return at the expense of the next generation! It makes no sense.

This is basic ECON 101. High school level home ec probably. Not some big conspiracy perpetrated by the central banking cabal.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#72
post #36

Aside from perhaps lack of developers / competency, I wonder why central banks don't issue digital currencies themselves? Mark Carney (current Bank of England governor) has been warming up to the idea - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/20/mark-carney... Not sure if that because he is setting himself up for a new job at Libra after his BoE gig finishes in 2 months, or is there merit to the idea and appeti…

>> I wonder why central banks don't issue digital currencies themselves?

Because they already have one? And it comes with handy features such as being available in paper form, storable in a regular DB, relatively stable and manipulatable and easy for everyone to understand. And a whole host of other goodies gleaned out of 400 years of attempting to keep the gears moving while keeping economic implosion to the bare minimum.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#73
post #65
post #37

The answer to the question implied in the article -- why does Libra make such unjustified design decisions -- is simple. Some people have become enamored with blockchain despite it having almost no good use cases, and this certainly isn't one. It seems like a classic example of focusing on the technology rather than on the problem. -- Regardless of the other, far more important sections of this article, I find the se…

If you may spare a minute, I'd like to know your opinion on mission-critical software in dangerous-prone contexts (such as avionics, life support, even just economically for permanently-written "ROM" software, etc). Formal methods seem required in such projects, but your final paragraph seems to imply the formalism isn't key to end quality? (my agenda, for transparency: I want to send SOC's in space on tiny RISC-V sa…

> but your final paragraph seems to imply the formalism isn't key to end quality?

That's not what I said. I said that merely creating a verified formal specification of a language is not in itself a good path to increasing correctness, and I wouldn't focus on that as a significant cause for concern given all others. But even when you use formal methods in the development of your software -- and I'm certainly a proponent -- there are many formal methods with widely different guarantees and costs, and some of them don't require a formal specification of the programming language. Moreover, no system can be 100% error free, regardless of verification method used. Systems rely on hardware whose actual behavior can never be "proven" correct, and, at best, only probabilistically matches the spec.

I personally believe that some formal methods can greatly improve correctness, and do so affordably, but the question of which formal methods are worthwhile when and by how much each of them improves correctness is very much an open question.

> it's the only working implementation of the concept of perfectly secured data.

I strongly disagree. There is no such thing as "perfectly secure." Security is defined with respect to certain threats (e.g. a hazmat suit can protect you from poisonous gas but gives you no defense from bullets, whereas a bullet-proof vest is the opposite), and blockchain is rarely the most secure with respect to the most relevant threats in a monetary system.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#74
post #67
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but I think, with traditional money exchange the reliance is on regulatory and legal enforcement, rather than making the technology itself watertight, which increases the risk profile, and thus cost. You can do this in traditional approaches because you just pass on these costs and there's no need to improve beyond what people are willing to pay. Crypto represents an asymptote for what a rigorously applied technologi…

> but I think, with traditional money exchange the reliance is on regulatory and legal enforcement, rather than making the technology itself watertight, A lot of money and research has gone into this, and the tech is being tightened up all the time. > which increases the risk profile, and thus cost. Except the cost isn't actually higher. > You can do this in traditional approaches because you just pass on these costs…

> A lot of money and research has gone into this, and the tech is being tightened up all the time.

Yeah, but it's not being deployed at consumer level, nor are the savings being passed on.

> A much more expensive and more risky way to do basically anything

Risky, yeah. Like any new technology. But transaction cost is cheaper.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get involved in some holy war. I can see there's people with a lot vested in both sides of the debate. I'm neither. Just pointing out the obvious.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#75
post #40

This ignores the big problems in Facebook's Libra: 1) It charges ECONOMIC RENTS. The ethical asset backed and currency backed stable coin needs to pass profits from revenue generating assets to the currency holder. The member companies should only take a tiny slice of the profits. This is the MASSIVE problem. 2) Libra is designed that ECONOMIC RENTS will be sharecropped and sent to the member companies. This will be…

Economic rents is an issue, but how else would you incentivize member companies to join into Libra in the first place? The proven business models are "evil" to some population: 1. Charge fees (like paypal, stripe, bank ach / wires), 2. Collect interest via economic rents, or 3. Capture and monetize user data ala Facebook. Can you think of a better way to jumpstart a new monetary network?

Laws and regulations in Europe have managed to make wire transfers and card payments cheap and efficient for both consumers and businesses.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#76
post #73
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you may spare a minute, I'd like to know your opinion on mission-critical software in dangerous-prone contexts (such as avionics, life support, even just economically for permanently-written "ROM" software, etc). Formal methods seem required in such projects, but your final paragraph seems to imply the formalism isn't key to end quality? (my agenda, for transparency: I want to send SOC's in space on tiny RISC-V sa…

> but your final paragraph seems to imply the formalism isn't key to end quality? That's not what I said. I said that merely creating a verified formal specification of a language is not in itself a good path to increasing correctness, and I wouldn't focus on that as a significant cause for concern given all others. But even when you use formal methods in the development of your software -- and I'm certainly a propon…

> Security is defined with respect to certain threats, and blockchain is rarely the most secure with respect to the threats in a monetary system.

Wow, this is a great way to frame this! What do you see as the largest threats to the effective operation of a monetary system?

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#77

> Not many people who work on financial infrastructure speak publicly about their work... This was a bit of a throw away line, but I found it insightful. As someone who isn't in this space, my question is: why is this? Is it contractual, or is that just not part of the space's ethos? Feels like we need to overcome this some how to achieve progress?

Why would you give away any details, when each one of them might end up being a secret that is causing your firm to make millions of dollars? The financial sector is many things, it's a lubricant of the economy, it is a prediction machine, it's a fascilitator of markets, but not least important it is setup as a game, where every player tries to outsmart the others. Why would you talk about how you are playing and giv…

I wish superior innovation were more responsible for the bulk of profits. Weighted by volume, in more cases it is simple market power.

(Fun fact: Statistics was invented many times throughout history. Minus the last time, it was always hidden to make someone money.)

Even when you've got awesome secrets, you've still got other parts of the business. Open research moves faster. Libraries of books have been written about investment, or running a business, or writing software, or other profitable things. Granted, some of that comes from people teaching without acting -- but a lot of it too comes from actors with serious skin in the game.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Fiat currency isn't reprogrammable--how would you implement a consumer protection mechanism on it? Pick your favorite consumer protection mechanism, and I'll pick my favorite cryptocurrency and let's compare: A) the up front implemention cost of the protection mechanism in fiat currency B) the up front implemention cost of the protection mechanism in the crypto C) the year-over-year cost i…

You've made some assumptions here about the impact of a verified supply chain for vape cartridges, and it sounds like you're proposing a solution to a non-existent problem. A reputable supplier of vape cartridges gains nothing from having a verified supply chain - people trust them anyway and they maintain a supply of good cartridges to protect that reputation. A non-reputable supplier of vape cartridges doesn't care…

That's a fair point. But I mentioned high schoolers in my example because they can't buy from a reputable source since they're not old enough (not that I think they should be vaping at all, but supply and demand...).

But still, the perpetrators here are not technically capable of pulling off a convincing forgery, so if the kids were sensitive to this issue in the first place then I guess there would indeed be no reason to insert a blockchain into the situation.

So let's take a scenario where the middle men are indeed capable of convincing forgeries: sneakers. Cardano is working on a supply chain integration there too:

https://beincrypto.com/new-balance-to-use-cardano-technology...

And my wife's students (she's a teacher) are really into their sneakers. They're also largely unaware that chain/web of trust type measures exist at all for validation of product authenticity--but if Nike started doing this, they'd become experts overnight. And then, after school, when offered a sketchy vape product, they might think twice.

Maybe that's a weak argument too. Still, I like the ability to use the same channels you money would flow through to determine if your upcoming purchase came from where you think it did, and I think that that's a capability that's going to be hard for fiat currency to mimic.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#79

I don't disagree with the article per se, but I think many technologists are missing the forest for the trees when it comes to the motivations here. Or perhaps they're being charitable and are evaluating Libra on purely on its stated motivations rather than the ulterior motive that Libra can't name out loud. For example, take this quote: "The possibility that a Libra node run by Mastercard or Andressen Horrowitz woul…

Therein lies a problem: there are no facts of nature. The only things that could be said to be a fact in nature is to describe how you observe something to work. The observations may change, how it works may change, and neither of these things force nature to be a certain way.

It would not be impossible for someone to change the observations of the blockchain, manipulate its inputs and outputs, or even change how it operates, as software and hardware are imperfect, along with how we use them. Furthermore, even if the system were technically perfect, political and economic systems do not have to abide by their rules. An oppressive state can simply decide not to deal with them, as the world is in no way bound to being purely rational at all times.

It's like trying to "fix" a painting by using philosophy. One is a series of logical arguments, and the other is paint on canvas; certainly they can influence each other, but they can't solve each other's problems.

Re: Facebook Libra Is Architecturally Unsound

#80
post #6

There have been a lot of posts and responses about Libra. The core of it is that FB wants to be an unregulated bank. That is all this whole thing is about. Given the current (and post 2020 political realities?), it is no wonder all the established payment companies tapped out. This effort will be delayed until their is a government structure willing to look the other way. It will also be really interesting to see how…

As time goes on, it's increasingly looking likely that it won't be rolled out in Europe[0]. > "Libra is not welcome on European soil," French Economy Minister Bruno Le Maire told reporters the sidelines of the annual meetings of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund > "Do we want to put monetary policy in the hands of a private company like Facebook? My answer is clearly no," he said [0]: https://www.busines…

Well the only thing that is clear that people seem to be a bit hand wavy about what exactly is being blocked and why it is being blocked. Lets clear that up a bit.

Libra is several things, most of which will be hard/impossible to block without new laws and also blocking a large amount of currently legal things. So, blocking all of it is not a thing.

First it's an oss blockchain platform. It's similar in design to several other blockchain platforms; none of which are currently banned anywhere. Banning software is (mostly) not a thing.

Once it gets to a stable state, somebody will fire up some nodes and a Libra network comes into existence. If other blockchains are any indication, there's a good chance there will be multiple of these (e.g. testing and public). Blockchain networks don't get commonly blocked and you can legally connect to most blockchains out there from most countries. Blocking blockchain access is not a thing.

Then it is a legal entity based in Switzerland with representatives from lots of companies (though minus a few of course as of a few weeks ago). This too is nothing special. Doing business with, being a member of, or interacting with this legal entity is not subject to blocking either.

Then there are the countless financial products, tokens, etc. you can build on top of Libra, most of which are going to be similar to other stuff out there and many of which are not currently illegal or blocked in the EU or the US.

One of those things is the Libra coin. As such coins don't get blocked but the organizations that create them are subject to legislation. The controversial thing about Libra is related to how Facebook intends to implement mechanisms for controlling its value. These are in scope for legislative action.

Once all this is up and running, Facebook plans to integrate some kind of wallet type solution to do payments into their products. That would be similar to Paypal, Android Pay, WeChat, and other stuff in this space. Payment solutions as such are fine as well. Payment solutions using some kind of stable coin are also fine. Several fintech companies already do this, legally.

So, Facebook and the Libra foundation have quite a bit of wiggle room to make most of the above a reality. Yes there would be legal hurdles. The only thing that stands out is Facebook's intention to do market making (via the Libra Association) this is the bit that is controversial. When politicians say they want to ban Libra, what they are saying is that they want to ban all of it because of this market making. The reality is that they will likely try to create some legal hurdles for the market making. Facebook can then choose to work around those.

E.g., you could feasibly implement some alternate coins (simple euro and dollar stable coins like already exist on exchanges) and Facebook has already indicated that they are thinking of doing exactly that.

IMHO it is entirely likely that Facebook may give in to the political pressure to not do this given that they already are under pressure on other fronts. This would happen before they get blocked. But if they push through with this, it's very likely that the legal and political fights around this will be very lengthy. Legislation around this topic will be slow and translating the uninformed but widely spread sentiment "we don't like this" into concrete action is not likely to happen fast.

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