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U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

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221–230 of 563 posts

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#221

How to fix student loans... The .gov backs student loans. And, they are non-dischargeable. So, it is zero risk for the lender to give loan to the 2.7 GPA moron getting a worthless basket weaving degree from the local private lib arts school for $100k. So, they give as many loans as possible, since they can't lose (taxpayer on the hook). Colleges are incentivized to drive up costs of tuition b/c tons of free money. It…

It is incredible to me how straightforward and undoubtedly true the point you are making is, yet I've had 0% success in bringing it up in conversation without immediately being called all sorts of names or accused of hating poor people.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#222
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Half of all college students don't finish their 4-year degree in 5 years, and it's not due to cost. Even countries like France, Netherlands, etc which have lower costs for college, place you in a track when you're in your freshman year of high school. This track determines if you're going to college, a trade, or somewhere in between, and it's hard to switch from lower to higher tracks. College should not be a goal fo…

You're describing a caste system, except instead of having your life determined by your lineage it's determined by some standardized tests given when you are 14 years old. It might work for some societies but that flies so directly against the "American Dream" that it will never work here.

In reality it isn't as limiting as you think in the Netherlands. You get different levels of education based on previous school results, but after finishing "mid level" highschool you can continue and take the last two years of "upper level" highschool if it turns out you developed more and are now a better learner at 17 than you were at 14. In total that takes only 1 year extra, because "upper level" is a year longer by default.

Same in college vs university, you can continue from the lower level program into a masters degree as long as you pass the acceptance test or have the required grades.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#223

What I find funny in these discussions on HN is how most people seem to be completely oblivious to the obvious solution, proven to work in many developed countries around the world: have the state directly fund universities and don't charge tuition to students (or charge them a small amount). Why is the assumption "universities are private endeavours that should make a profit" something that goes unchallenged on HN?

There are a variety of systems that 'work' around the world. The United States' model clearly works to some extent as its universities are still able to attract talented professors from around the world and produce a lot of great research.

There are a few reasons why people would resist the idea of making all universities publicly funded. One of them is that Academic pursuit is now beholden to the state and its interests. In the current system, you can find funding for research in universities from both private and public investment. Also, when all funding is from the government, its bureaucratic nature tends to increase costs. Anyone that has worked with a government contract in the US probably understands how lucrative it can be because the government is not incentivized to reduce costs in a way a private entity would. Anyone that has worked in a department of the government when they have to spend the rest of their budget so it doesn't get reduced also understands this. Interaction with private entities that are incentivized to increase profits with what is basically an infinite money pit is dangerous (who then use said money to push for regulatory capture in congress), and you can see the effects of this in almost every aspect of the U.S. government.

It also further cements the idea that you must go to University in order to be eligible for any sort of job in the U.S. Jobs that traditionally only required a high school education or less now require a 4 year degree. This already is happening to an extent because it's an easy way to eliminate candidates, despite the fact that their profession may or may not require any sort of post-secondary education.

It also is a program that benefits and subsidizes people that either don't need it (wealthy upper class) or are already relatively advantaged in life (middle class). It would unlikely benefit the poor as much as you'd think, as there are still a lot of barriers to getting into higher education that the poor face that the middle and upper class simply don't. From the bottom up they have worse schooling and less opportunities. They may be under pressure to find a job immediately out of school (or drop out of high school) to support their family. The exceptions that can benefit from some program like this likely already can benefit from the current system of scholarships and grants to underprivileged students.

I would like to see a shift to something more similar to Canada where the distinction between college and university is clear. Academic and Vocational (but still professional) schooling being separate can be valuable and serve students with different learning styles better than the largely liberal arts education that universities in the U.S. provide. I'd also like to see some of this theoretical money that is funding tuition-free university towards improving educational opportunities from the bottom up in places that desperately need it. It doesn't matter if your postsecondary education is tuition-free if you can't make it to college.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#225
post #75

How to fix student loans... The .gov backs student loans. And, they are non-dischargeable. So, it is zero risk for the lender to give loan to the 2.7 GPA moron getting a worthless basket weaving degree from the local private lib arts school for $100k. So, they give as many loans as possible, since they can't lose (taxpayer on the hook). Colleges are incentivized to drive up costs of tuition b/c tons of free money. It…

The 100k basket weaving liberal arts student barely exists and is a meme to generate rage clicks.

The modern versions are usually gender studies, communications, or English.. As an engineer, it's difficult to accept any non-engineering degree as legitimate :-)

So my nephew is getting his degree in "expeditionary studies":

https://www.plattsburgh.edu/programs/expeditionary-studies-m...

I'm jealous..

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#226

What I find funny in these discussions on HN is how most people seem to be completely oblivious to the obvious solution, proven to work in many developed countries around the world: have the state directly fund universities and don't charge tuition to students (or charge them a small amount). Why is the assumption "universities are private endeavours that should make a profit" something that goes unchallenged on HN?

Our system produces the best universities and most sought after students on the planet. Why would we adopt a model that gets worse results? If states want to find community college or something I wouldn't gripe too much, but universities are for advancing human knowledge. Don't hold them back.

> best universities and most sought after students on the planet

All available data shows otherwise.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "best" here is really in the eye of the beholder. At the undergraduate level, the most important value of a degree is the signaling value.

Look up basically any list of top universities in the world. The United States is wildly over-represented. Undergraduate degree as a social signal is a different problem to solve.

"wildly overrated"

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#228

How to fix student loans... The .gov backs student loans. And, they are non-dischargeable. So, it is zero risk for the lender to give loan to the 2.7 GPA moron getting a worthless basket weaving degree from the local private lib arts school for $100k. So, they give as many loans as possible, since they can't lose (taxpayer on the hook). Colleges are incentivized to drive up costs of tuition b/c tons of free money. It…

The government doesn’t just back student loans, it makes the student loans. The government is the lender. More than 90% of all student debt is carried on the government’s books.

Not only that, I remember reading that something like 1/3 of the US federal government's receivables are student loans. A mass default or forgiveness program would dramatically lower the governments ability to pay other obligations.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#229
post #144
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fundamentally incompatible with the idea that everyone should be able to afford to go to college and private institutions need to foot the bill for the costs. We as a society prioritized availability of college education over costs. In order to get both you would likely have to change to some income percentage based repayment system instead of traditional loan repayments and that probably wouldn't be possible…

Half of all college students don't finish their 4-year degree in 5 years, and it's not due to cost. Even countries like France, Netherlands, etc which have lower costs for college, place you in a track when you're in your freshman year of high school. This track determines if you're going to college, a trade, or somewhere in between, and it's hard to switch from lower to higher tracks. College should not be a goal fo…

> Even countries like France, Netherlands, etc which have lower costs for college, place you in a track when you're in your freshman year of high school.

Imagine trying to do this in the US. I wonder to what extent colleges are free in places where there is stricter criteria to get into college.

Re: U of Chicago projected to be the first U.S. university to cost $100k per year

#230
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, track the loan payback percentage for each degree, let’s say 5 years after graduation. Publish those results, and stop making loans for programs where the repayment is less than X%. Then, basket weaving degrees won’t get loans, the cost for basket weaving programs will go down, as only those with parent’s stupid money will pay for basket weaving degrees. Students will be directed by market forces to degrees that…

More likely, the basket weaving program would entirely go away. Wealthy parents generally aren't idiots and don't encourage their children to waste away in pointless degrees. Well, the ultra-wealthy might not care, but there aren't too many of those. In any event, congrats, you just made a whole set of degrees inaccessible to anyone except the wealthy. The progressives are really going to love you for that.

It's wise to view a degree of such cost which is unlikely to re-pay itself as a luxury good. We call most other quarter-million dollar products that have little investment potential, such as yachts, luxuries. The whole point of free college is to give everyone a shot at the middle class. Personally I think we'll just get degree inflation; college has been used as a distinguishing factor because there are a limited number of such jobs. That aside, basket-weaving degrees don't move people into the middle class. Would anyone, progressives included, contend that everyone ought to get a free yacht (or other luxury good of your choice)? A free stem degree is at least much more likely to lead to long-term, multi-generational success.

Markets provided some balance here, but were taken out of the picture. No thoughtful lender provides equal capital at equal interest rates to a poetry and a business major. This is reasonable, as the business major has a significantly higher lifetime earning potential. Making more capital available at lower rates to higher-earning majors is a good strategy because it helps to push people into higher-earning jobs. The invisible hand seems better-equipped to do this than a central planner.

I haven't seen ISAs (income-share agreements) mentioned much here, which is a pity. The obvious solution is to modify the incentive structure such that colleges have a strong financial interest in the success of their students, which ISAs accomplish. If you want to read more, I recommend this article: https://reason.org/commentary/a-better-path-to-dealing-with-...

Purdue is currently offering them, so we'll hopefully get some real-world data on how they work, but they seem very promising on paprer.

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