Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#481

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145

kyboren wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By that reasoning, a presidential candidate of Chinese descent who was a natural born American citizen but had relatives back in china would be disqualified Not so. The Constitution is very clear on eligibility requirements for the President. A natural born American citizen of Chinese descent who otherwise satisfies the requirements in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is perfectly eligible to run for the office. If…

> Second, I am curious why you disagree completely, yet accept that your relationship with your wife may disqualify you from holding a government security clearance. This has to do with companies making their own rules about what is right or wrong without any checks, balances, or voter feedback. Security clearances are actually defined by law, I’m against corporations becoming their own extra judicial entities.

> I’m against corporations becoming their own extra judicial entities.

They already are, with most disputes being settled with Binding Arbitration rather than via the court systems.

Others have already pointed out though, that a company needs to act in its own interests and one of the things it would certainly find interesting is whether an individual is capable of being coerced into sabotaging/sharing corporate trade secrets.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#482

Post by elefanten » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:47 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #453

_wmhc wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west" I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

> Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now. These are not even remotely comparable. China is an outright police state. Not saying the United States doesn't have a lot of work to do with regards to personal liberty, but the Government here has nothing close to the iron grip control that the CCP has; they may want it, and what Governmen…

Indeed. False equivalence is the oxygen of these discussions.

We should be able to discuss America's governance failures and problem areas without conflating them with horribly regressive models of governance.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#483

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

el_cujo wrote: post #439

arczyx wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition? I'm not from China and I disagree with the action of the China's government you listed above. However I wonder why this kind of opinion (aka the Chinese should be responsible for their government) is not commonly held against…

Because the USA has an independent media that is very critical of its government while China doesn't (at least not on the scale as the USA's main stream media). I mean maybe if you're a conspiracy theorist you could say it's just controlled opposition or a distraction, but in the context of this argument at least the US media is unafraid to criticize or even just straight up mock the government and it's leaders, that…

Considering the US media completely swallowed the WMD lies and that the most popular news outlet in America is Fox News (WTF) which has all the characteristics of a state run channel... the US media hasn't done a very good job of speaking truth to power.

The current Presidency has put some of these issues in sharper contrast, but the Iraq war was a total failure of the US media to do their job (IMO).

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#484

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

computerex wrote: post #470

abduhl wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a counter example of GDP using Purchasing Power Parity where China is "much" bigger under this metric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

The difference between China/US in nominal GDP is much much greater than the difference in PPP. Secondly China is a known currency manipulator so I am inclined to pay less heed to the PPP. Finally the GDP per capita of China is absolutely dismal. Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty.

PPP GDP is much less affected by currency manipulation than nominal GDP, because the latter relies directly on the exchange rate.

> China is a known currency manipulator

The accusation has always been that they're suppressing the value of their currency (in order to boost exports), which would actually mean that their nominal GDP understates rather than overstates the size of the economy. Whether these accusations are true is a different question.

> It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty.

It's certainly not a Third World country anymore (technically, this is a misuse of the term "Third World," but I'll go with it). GDP/capita in Beijing, Shanghai and Tianjin (China's 3 largest cities) is about $20k, which puts them roughly on the same level as the Czech Republic, Greece and Estonia, and just slightly below Portugal and Taiwan. Lots of Chinese cities are richer than these three (Shenzhen is at $32k/capita, similar to South Korea). On average, Chinese GDP/capita is about $10k, similar to Mexico and Turkey. That's pretty much average for the world.

There are certainly huge differences between different regions of China (Beijing is way more developed than a random farming village in the West of China), and there's enormous inequality within every part of China, so there are a lot of poor people. However, there are also a few hundred million people living what you would recognize as middle-class lives. That's why you'll see so many Chinese tourists these days at any random tourist destination around the world - they have the money to afford those sorts of luxuries now.

> Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country.

Most Chinese people would agree with you that China is not yet "prosperous." Even the Chinese government officially agrees with you on that. They are doing vastly better than they used to, though, and the country as a whole is no longer poor. It's about average for the world now, but with a high growth rate and some highly developed regions in the East. Whether they make the final push into developed-country status remains to be seen.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#485

Post by elefanten » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:04 PM UTC

whoevercares wrote: post #378

computerex wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth. China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China. When China…

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are frea…

Is there debate about this on the Chinese net? I'm curious because I don't know, but I imagine having a debate where people can genuinely criticize China would be difficult to conduct in the face of censorship and legal risk.

I ask because my experience across the Western net has been seeing lots of debate. This thread is a good example. I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims.

So I genuinely wonder; does vibrant and open debate take place somewhere? How/where could I see what such debates look like?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#486

Post by codyb » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:09 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #400

munmaek wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. I find it intellectually dishonest to compare the USA’s foreign policy with a dictatorship government that forces compliance through threats on local relatives, etc.

> Well, the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, for starters. Right, if you're a U.S citizen maybe not, otherwise they'll do that and worse, read on "enhanced integrations", kidnappings etc. So the U.S is better domestically, (still employs prisoners as effectively slave labor, treats minorities harshly, lets people die due to lack of healthcare...), but it is worse in terms of foreign p…

Is the US worst in terms of foreign policy? Seems like the peoples of the South China sea, Tibet, and Hong Kong might have different opinions on that matter.

Also all the nations in Africa with newly built debt trap infrastructure.

The US has done some truly shit things abroad, but we’ve also been the dominant superpower during a period of unprecedented stability, prosperity, and peace when you look at the numbers.

Sure Iraq was a shit show, and I’m of the opinion that war crimes were committed during enhanced interrogations.

But the entire history of the world before WWII is just one long history of war basically everywhere. Open market slavery.

The US isn’t perfect, but the alternative filled with constant regional conflicts everywhere certainly seems like a worse alternative to me.

Edit: not sure why I waded into this conversation.

Curious though, I’m seeing the 4x prison population for USA per capita number bandied about.

On one level, I see that number slowly improving as we stop arresting people for smoking marijuana.

And on the other, I’m really curious, and have no idea, are China’s Uighur population which are in “reeducation camps” counted in China’s numbers?

Aren’t they harvesting people’s organs in those places?

Rough. America’s always had a lot of outright and systemic racism but my feeling is that it slowly but surely keeps getting better.

I have a feeling Generation Z is going to be pretty open about things whether it’s sexuality, skin color, gender, or whatever.

Ultra PC and call out/cancel culture is another thing with it’s own warts, but yay for a society where an entire generation can push forward this new ideology of being whatever the hell you want to be.

The boomers are dying out, the evangelicals and religious are losing people every day.

I have faith we’ll be fighting for human rights and climate change accords soon.

I really hope at least.

So to conclude, my opinion, we’re no paragon of morals and values, but our history shows a slow but steady stride towards an ideal, one of freedom, and individuality, and opportunity, for all.

We take steps back, we make awful mistakes, but over the long term, we always move forward.

That’s the America I believe in. I hope I’m not wrong.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#487

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

GenericsMotors wrote: post #469

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the GP comment, which says this is a good first step and then muses about expanding the ban to Green Card holders: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21438366 I then suggest you edit out your erroneous personal attacks.

You seem very focused on China only...why is that? GP's "musing" equally affects Russians. Or are Russians not something your ideology would allow you to defend? Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage. Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian…

I would fully defend Russians against this sort of xenophobia as well. They just don't seem to be the enemy du jour. Complaining about Russia is so 2018. America has a short attention span, and has moved on to the next great evil.

> Regardless, the GP does raise a valid point that if you have family living under the heel of a totalitarian dictatorship they can and will be used as leverage.

Okay, so now you can edit our your attacks above, because you see that the post I was responding to did discuss targeting Chinese and Russian people living in the US.

> Your whinging won't change that fact, and it has nothing to do with them being Chinese (or Russian!), and everything to do with their country's government.

Regardless of the rationale, they're still being targeted on the basis of their nationality. The general impression is being created that all Chinese and Russian people in the US are potential national security threats, whose employment should be restricted. I don't see any functional or moral difference between that and xenophobia. It reminds me of the generalized suspicion of Muslims after 9/11. It's not a pretty thing, and it's sad to see it gaining currency.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#488

Post by elefanten » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:14 PM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #329

mb_72 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in China for some time, and have sources of information other than just 'Western media'. Are you saying the article I linked in, for one example, is not accurate? Are you saying the UN is wrong with their information? I have no doubt the Chinese have a different point of view; they have much less complete information on the subjects I mentioned, and others. But, yes, of course the point is that the poster…

It's very disputable whether or not China is "stealing" territory in the South China Sea or engaging in debt-trap diplomacy. The latter accusation is mostly hypothetical at the moment, based on a general fear that Chinese loans for infrastructure investment might in the future be abused to trap poor countries in debt. More generally, what's the point of raising these accusations? When you speak to an American, do you…

The South China Sea part really isn't debatable. Absolutely everyone outside China thinks the Line is bullshit.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#489

Post by pm90 » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

munmaek wrote: post #478

pm90 wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US government wont make my family disappear if I don’t cooperate, Don't be so sure of that. If you hold valuable information on a foreign state, you will be accused and quickly convicted under various national security laws if you don't co-operate. You severely under-estimate the power of a state, especially one as powerful as the US. If they want something from you, they will get it. Have you broken a minor la…

Even in that example, the US government would not make my family disappear. Please cite any reputable sources that you have to the contrary, because anything else is a spurious claim. I'm not going to argue over various conspiracy theories. Corruption and unfair things exist in every single country, but we do have the right to freedom of press, speech, assembly, and due process.

To be clear, I'm not arguing for any such conspiracy theories. All I'm saying is that the State can go after you and your family if you refuse to co-operate with it on important enough subjects.

I do agree that the barrier for that may be lower in more authoritarian states, as they're not restricted by the system of laws in the US. Maybe that's the best we can get.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#490

Post by NoodleIncident » Mon, Nov 04, 2019, 7:16 PM UTC

yourbandsucks wrote: post #431

munmaek wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here's a pretty significant online mob who really want to split HK off of China There are significant online mobs dedicated to anything. That's not really a convincing argument. People who are advocating independence don't understand the situation, nor do they even understand what the protestors actually want (it's not independence). > Why aren't we focused on cleaning our own house first if it's about justice and…

It is complex! You're right. It's also complex over there, where Americans don't speak the language or understand anything about the culture or history. Our lack of understanding does not make them 1-dimensional movie villains in reality.

Of course they're not 1-dimensional movie villains. China quite literally doesn't allow that, and Hollywood cooperates with this demand.