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L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#31

Post by zaroth »

dpratt wrote: post #26
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Also, the above article itself shows some empirical data that Uber will not, in fact, just hand over my data when asked. Note that I don’t think they do this out of the goodness of the hearts or altruism, but rather that they’ve done the calculus and determined that giving this data to the government would cost them enough ill will and loss of revenue to make it not worthwhile. Uber, unlike a government, has to answe…

> Also, the above article itself shows some empirical data that Uber will not, in fact, just hand over my data when asked.

And even when they are threatened with (and now ultimately face) a shutdown that will cost them downtime in presumably a very profitable market.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#32

Post by sneak »

candu wrote: post #24
michaelt wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the bike is not where you put it as the last owner, you pay a fine How do they tell the difference between the last user not returning it, and the bike being stolen with bolt cutters after the last user returned it properly?

Not sure how they do it exactly, but one possibility is CCTV cameras watching drop-off locations. You can then compare footage at the timestamp it was reported on-location if there's a dispute. Combine this with a few anti-theft procedures that don't involve GPS / internet (as commonly used by bikeshare programs in various municipalities) and you've got something that might work.

CCTV video files are just a less efficient form of GPS and time stamp logging. JSON from a GPS receiver is more straightforward.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#33

Post by Angostura »

michaelt wrote: post #3

I guess I don't see any way a dockless bike/scooter rental scheme can be compatible with privacy. Their need to know where available bikes are, and to be able to detect thefts makes it hard to imagine they could work without GPS tracking. And as soon as you know who rented what bike when, and where each bike went, you're going to start knowing customers' homes, workplaces and places of worship. Although the governmen…

> as soon as you know who rented what bike

Except, as far as I can see, according to the article, the only required info is start and finish point and journey length.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#34

Post by bko »

michaelt wrote: post #3

I guess I don't see any way a dockless bike/scooter rental scheme can be compatible with privacy. Their need to know where available bikes are, and to be able to detect thefts makes it hard to imagine they could work without GPS tracking. And as soon as you know who rented what bike when, and where each bike went, you're going to start knowing customers' homes, workplaces and places of worship. Although the governmen…

Would you feel the same way if Uber complied privately and the article read:

"Uber shares real-time rider information with government agency"?

It seems like Uber can't win. If they share information, they're violating the trust and privacy of their riders. If they don't they still don't care about privacy but they're now also flouting regulators.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#35

Post by jquery »

dpratt wrote: post #26
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Also, the above article itself shows some empirical data that Uber will not, in fact, just hand over my data when asked. Note that I don’t think they do this out of the goodness of the hearts or altruism, but rather that they’ve done the calculus and determined that giving this data to the government would cost them enough ill will and loss of revenue to make it not worthwhile. Uber, unlike a government, has to answe…

This should be the top comment. Well said.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#36

Post by AlexandrB »

dpratt wrote: post #26
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Also, the above article itself shows some empirical data that Uber will not, in fact, just hand over my data when asked. Note that I don’t think they do this out of the goodness of the hearts or altruism, but rather that they’ve done the calculus and determined that giving this data to the government would cost them enough ill will and loss of revenue to make it not worthwhile. Uber, unlike a government, has to answe…

That's because the US government is still fundamentally democratic and follows the rule of law. Such a government might also treat your data with some due process. A government that's willing to use force to arbitrarily enforce its will is also one that would do the same to Uber and its executives. In that environment Uber would not resist.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#37

Post by AlexandrB »

dpratt wrote: post #21
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Explain how it is legal for Uber to send a team of armed men to kick down my door at 3am and forcibly confine me to a cell.

This weird paranoia about the government acting with no consequence seems to never extend to 2nd or 3rd layer thinking. If the government could send a team of armed me to kick down your door at 3am and forcibly confine you to a cell with no due process, they could do the same to the CEO of Uber to get your information in the first place. Having a layer of indirection in the form of a private company is little-to-no protection against a despotic regime. It only works if the government is still following the rule of law themselves.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#38

Post by habnds »

bko wrote: post #34
michaelt wrote: post #3

I guess I don't see any way a dockless bike/scooter rental scheme can be compatible with privacy. Their need to know where available bikes are, and to be able to detect thefts makes it hard to imagine they could work without GPS tracking. And as soon as you know who rented what bike when, and where each bike went, you're going to start knowing customers' homes, workplaces and places of worship. Although the governmen…

Would you feel the same way if Uber complied privately and the article read: "Uber shares real-time rider information with government agency"? It seems like Uber can't win. If they share information, they're violating the trust and privacy of their riders. If they don't they still don't care about privacy but they're now also flouting regulators.

Seems like if Uber is going to use this data for their benefit society should be able to use it to ours as well for planning an infrastructure purposes for example.

The way that society does stuff like this is through government bodies. The real problem here seems like a lack of trust or oversight of government bodies, which creates the impossible situation you identify.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#39

Post by forgottenpass »

pasiaj wrote: post #7
michaelt wrote: post #3

I guess I don't see any way a dockless bike/scooter rental scheme can be compatible with privacy. Their need to know where available bikes are, and to be able to detect thefts makes it hard to imagine they could work without GPS tracking. And as soon as you know who rented what bike when, and where each bike went, you're going to start knowing customers' homes, workplaces and places of worship. Although the governmen…

I expect Uber to care a lot about privacy. They’ve burned themselves badly before disrespecting privacy and I assume they’ve improved in that area immensely. Uber’s and their employees’ own interests are aligned with strong data privacy. The same cannot be said for the government.

>I expect Uber to care a lot about privacy.

Uber cares about the confidentiality of their business records. They will continue to not give a single fuck about privacy. There is a difference.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#40

Post by heavenlyblue »

sneak wrote: post #32
candu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how they do it exactly, but one possibility is CCTV cameras watching drop-off locations. You can then compare footage at the timestamp it was reported on-location if there's a dispute. Combine this with a few anti-theft procedures that don't involve GPS / internet (as commonly used by bikeshare programs in various municipalities) and you've got something that might work.

CCTV video files are just a less efficient form of GPS and time stamp logging. JSON from a GPS receiver is more straightforward.

GPS logging, however, contains a bunch of data unrelated to the security of bicycles themselves.

I also don’t understand how mentioning JSON is even relevant in this thread.

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