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L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

latimes.com

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Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#21

Post by dpratt »

AlexandrB wrote: post #17
dpratt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. By your logic, it would be more reasonable to require that Google be barred from all data sent over email, but require that copies get sent to the NSA. Similarly, AT&T should be required to not collect any phone records, but also be mandated to provide a copy of every single call to…

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Explain how it is legal for Uber to send a team of armed men to kick down my door at 3am and forcibly confine me to a cell.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#22

Post by ForHackernews »

michaelt wrote: post #9
Jakob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without GPS or internet: put the bike at a cross road and tell the app (or call center) at which cross road you put it. Every now and then they get serviced, if the bike is not where you put it as the last owner, you pay a fine. That’s how it worked for years in Munich, Germany. That way the bike doesn’t even need internet. To unlock the bike it generates a code with a key which is on the bike. I don’t see how GPS pr…

> if the bike is not where you put it as the last owner, you pay a fine How do they tell the difference between the last user not returning it, and the bike being stolen with bolt cutters after the last user returned it properly?

Maybe you snap a pic of the bike where you parked it and upload it as part of the park/lock/check-in process?

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#24

Post by candu »

michaelt wrote: post #9
Jakob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without GPS or internet: put the bike at a cross road and tell the app (or call center) at which cross road you put it. Every now and then they get serviced, if the bike is not where you put it as the last owner, you pay a fine. That’s how it worked for years in Munich, Germany. That way the bike doesn’t even need internet. To unlock the bike it generates a code with a key which is on the bike. I don’t see how GPS pr…

> if the bike is not where you put it as the last owner, you pay a fine How do they tell the difference between the last user not returning it, and the bike being stolen with bolt cutters after the last user returned it properly?

Not sure how they do it exactly, but one possibility is CCTV cameras watching drop-off locations. You can then compare footage at the timestamp it was reported on-location if there's a dispute.

Combine this with a few anti-theft procedures that don't involve GPS / internet (as commonly used by bikeshare programs in various municipalities) and you've got something that might work.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#25

Post by ForHackernews »

dpratt wrote: post #21
AlexandrB wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Explain how it is legal for Uber to send a team of armed men to kick down my door at 3am and forcibly confine me to a cell.

Before you worry about the legality of Uber's Maximum Customer Satisfaction Response Team, you'll have to provide evidence that something being against the law has ever stopped Uber from attempting it.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#26

Post by dpratt »

AlexandrB wrote: post #17
dpratt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. By your logic, it would be more reasonable to require that Google be barred from all data sent over email, but require that copies get sent to the NSA. Similarly, AT&T should be required to not collect any phone records, but also be mandated to provide a copy of every single call to…

> Uber doesn’t have a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on me. Uber falls under the jurisdiction of a gigantic State apparatus with both a vested interest in and the ability to use violence to enforce it’s will on you. Being a good corporate citizen, Uber would dutifully hand over your data to said government when asked. This is a distinction…

Also, the above article itself shows some empirical data that Uber will not, in fact, just hand over my data when asked.

Note that I don’t think they do this out of the goodness of the hearts or altruism, but rather that they’ve done the calculus and determined that giving this data to the government would cost them enough ill will and loss of revenue to make it not worthwhile. Uber, unlike a government, has to answer to the market, and thus its every consumer’s duty to punish those who would sell our liberties.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#27

Post by dannyr »

karlerss wrote: post #18

> data are necessary to figure out which companies are flouting the permit program’s rules Sending all ride data seems excessive. A few photographs taken by city officials showing scooters in wrong places should do the trick.

There's a cap on number of scooters and bikes each company can deploy. That's what LA is trying to enforce by asking for data.

FTA

"Los Angeles officials have said the data are necessary to figure out which companies are flouting the permit program’s rules, including caps on the number of vehicles and bans on riding in certain areas. They have also argued that the companies cannot be trusted to regulate themselves."

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#28

Post by dpratt »

karlerss wrote: post #18

> data are necessary to figure out which companies are flouting the permit program’s rules Sending all ride data seems excessive. A few photographs taken by city officials showing scooters in wrong places should do the trick.

If you present a problem to a government official that can be solved in a simple fashion or by a complex scheme that also grants them more power, they will go for the power every single time.

From their perspective, it’s just a bonus that they can cloud it in the sophistry of “its for public safety”.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#29

Post by mdorazio »

michaelt wrote: post #3

I guess I don't see any way a dockless bike/scooter rental scheme can be compatible with privacy. Their need to know where available bikes are, and to be able to detect thefts makes it hard to imagine they could work without GPS tracking. And as soon as you know who rented what bike when, and where each bike went, you're going to start knowing customers' homes, workplaces and places of worship. Although the governmen…

Do you worry about Google having that same data? If you use google maps on a regular basis they know where you live, work, eat, travel, hang out with friends, and which routes you take when.

Re: L.A. temporarily suspends Uber’s permit to rent out electric scooters and bikes

#30

Post by alistairSH »

_8j50 wrote: post #23

Why GPS? Why not low tech transponders? They're precise enough to help you locate a scooter but too imprecise for navigation or tracking the exact path someone took. Especially if they don't ping frequently.

Partly because some cities have no-ride zones where scooters and bikes are banned outright or supposed to be speed limited.

The boardwalks in some CA cities fall into this category. You can ride in the street parallel at whatever speed you want. But on the boardwalk, you're capped at X mph (usually Yes, the city could just use traffic enforcement to issue tickets. But, I'm inclined to have software enforcement and not hire more traffic cops.

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