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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

gitlab.com

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#161

Post by stunt »

Gitlab can restrict SRE selection for concerned clients and change their process to make sure every SRE doesn’t have access to every client. I’m sure some Chinese companies wouldn’t be happy to have American SREs access their data either and I can think about dozens other countries with political issues against each other.

But off topic, I’m wondering how many companies have similar policies that nobody knows just because they don’t have “open-source” policy.

Sadly recruitment process is polluted with many hidden policies and while we appreciate and expect honesty and transparency from applicants, the recruiters themselves aren’t anything close to honest and transparent.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#162

Post by simonh »

kyboren wrote: post #107
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter. As long as a security clearance isn’t required, discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective, even if it was legal. I hope we learned our lesson during WW2.

> discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective However, discriminating based on exposure to coercive pressure from aggressive and hostile foreign powers is probably OK, even if such exposure is heavily correlated with national origin. The key is that the discrimination must be based on an individual analysis of the applicant and his/her life circumstances. It's not OK to blanke…

You can't assume what ethical choices a person will make, before they make them. A Chinese citizen in that situation might find a way to get their family out of China, or otherwise find a way to avoid the issue, or just flat out refuse. You can't just take it for granted that you can't trust someone without much more specific evidence. That's a very greasy slippery slope towards justifying highly constructed justifications for discrimination.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#163

Post by emrehan »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #19

I'm shocked (in a positive way) about the amount of transparency Gitlab provides. Even as a reader, it almost feels as if someone misconfigured the ACLs or I'm reading leaked internal documents, not an intentional decision to make this open. Some of the discussions seem highly sensitive, and yet it seems to work for them. Thank you, Gitlab, for being so open! I've learned a lot about compliance from just reading this…

Check out the concept of "open startup": https://hackernoon.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-an-open-start...

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#164

Post by dodobirdlord »

ridaj wrote: post #133

If you want to be serious about it, you probably have to temporarily revoke access privileges for anyone in that job role who is traveling there too.

They likely will. If a customer is asking for something like this they probably aren't messing around.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#165

Post by mmjaa »

LIV2 wrote: post #154
LilBytes wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm surprised we (Australia) aren't already on more of these lists. After having this discussion with my manager and colleagues (the conversation with my manager was in my interview process where I bluntly stated if I was asked to comply with anything from this law, I'd immediately resign, my manager also agreed). Everyone I've spoken to agreed we'd immediately resign since it was the only potential option to protect…

As an Aussie living & working overseas I'm still not sure if it applies to me and makes me a liability? I know they can't enforce it unless I go home but I will someday

It does make you a liability. Australians can be shanghai'ed into working for the Australian intelligence agencies wherever they are on Earth.

I'm also an Australian living overseas, have worked on many sensitive projects that would be of interest to the Australian government and its masters, and I'm quite prepared to give up my nationality over this issue.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#166

Post by kyboren »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #145
kyboren wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By that reasoning, a presidential candidate of Chinese descent who was a natural born American citizen but had relatives back in china would be disqualified Not so. The Constitution is very clear on eligibility requirements for the President. A natural born American citizen of Chinese descent who otherwise satisfies the requirements in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is perfectly eligible to run for the office. If…

> Second, I am curious why you disagree completely, yet accept that your relationship with your wife may disqualify you from holding a government security clearance. This has to do with companies making their own rules about what is right or wrong without any checks, balances, or voter feedback. Security clearances are actually defined by law, I’m against corporations becoming their own extra judicial entities.

> This has to do with companies making their own rules about what is right or wrong without any checks, balances, or voter feedback.

As far as I understand, companies are generally free to make their own hiring decisions, so long as they do not amount to discrimination against a protected class. That limitation, by the way, stems from federal legislation--so companies are very much not extra-legal entities operating without any judicial accountability. If a state or federal Congress decide to further regulate companies' hiring decisions, they are free to do so.

I don't understand what exactly you would like companies to do: Simply ignore potential security risks? Do you have a specific process you advocate should be used to evaluate risks? What different kind of restrictions on companies' personnel decisions would you like to see? Do you just have a problem with a focus on risk from family members in PRC as opposed to a broader vetting process where that is only one risk factor?

> Security clearances are actually defined by law

I am not sure that an exact formula for grant/deny decisions exists in statute. These decisions strike me as inherently subjective, although certain facts are obviously pertinent to the decision. I would be very interested to read the relevant laws and regulations, though, if you'd be so kind as to point me to them.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#168

Post by mmjaa »

wolco wrote: post #95
babesh wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a load of cow manure aka confirmation bias. Israel has no compunction spying on the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/... There are definitely Chinese and Russian spies but there are spies from many countries besides those. The question is why are you singling out those countries and why now. The reason is that there is a Cold War…

Spying is happening between all nations and the leaked cables showed this. Why those two countries specifically? In Russia you can get imprisoned for a variety of political/strategic reasons if you refuse to cooperate. China implemented there own internet for spying. When you visit these countries you are advised to buy new devices and throw them out on return to avoid backdoors. General Powell misleading the UN and…

>get imprisoned for a variety of political/strategic reasons if you refuse to cooperate

The same is true of Australia, the USA, and the UK - these nations have no issues with imprisoning each others citizens if it behooves them - i.e. if the individual chooses not to cooperate with the military-industrial-pharmaceutical complex.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#169

Post by hkustliqi »

jplayer01 wrote: post #157
d1ffuz0r wrote: post #149

Deleting everything I have on gitlab and leaving this racist platform

So, give any quote from the link or elsewhere that in any way shows the reasoning for this consideration is based on how much they don’t like Chinese people or how inferior they are as a race. People keep throwing around the racist label even when it’s absolutely clear that it’s not about race. It’s about the Chinese and Russian governments and how they operate. These are legitimate informational/operational security…

Great. I'm sure US government never coerces its citizens, never spies on its citizens.. After all, USA is the chosen land by god, and its people has every reason to believe they are superior in morality.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#170

Post by iknowalot »

wuxb wrote: post #132
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t matter. As long as a security clearance isn’t required, discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective, even if it was legal. I hope we learned our lesson during WW2.

Lessons are getting unlearned by concerning enterprise customers.

Yes, this is old school racism wrapped in company policy. Bigoted leadership in this country gives this kind of activity permission.

The wiser among us know historically garbage thinking when we see it.

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