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Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

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Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#131
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since National Security Letters exist, blocking all employees from the US would also be logical. Same for running anything on third-party hardware. There needs to be a more effective response than Hari Kiri.

That's Hara kiri. If you're going to appropriate an antiquated foreign word out of context I wish you'd at least spell it properly.

That's the spelling in my phone's dictionary. If I were writing about ancient Japanese cultural traditions I might have checked. I think Japanese people, being inveterate word-stealers, would understand.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, technically it is discrimination, but not racism. I.e. you can still hire a Japanese developer, and with a Chinese regime change you might be able to hire Chinese developers. However, federal law prohibits discrimination based on national origin. This is a touchy subject, but maybe this no longer makes sense? As burfrog pointed out, a Chinese employee living in America isn't free from Chinese control; the gov't…

It doesn’t matter. As long as a security clearance isn’t required, discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective, even if it was legal. I hope we learned our lesson during WW2.

Lessons are getting unlearned by concerning enterprise customers.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective However, discriminating based on exposure to coercive pressure from aggressive and hostile foreign powers is probably OK, even if such exposure is heavily correlated with national origin. The key is that the discrimination must be based on an individual analysis of the applicant and his/her life circumstances. It's not OK to blanke…

I disagree completely. By that reasoning, a presidential candidate of Chinese descent who was a natural born American citizen but had relatives back in china would be disqualified, and that is nowhere justified by the constitution. A private company likewise shouldn’t be able to discriminate on speculative threats alone. What if they had a relative in prison, a hostile coercive environment by any measure? I accept th…

> By that reasoning, a presidential candidate of Chinese descent who was a natural born American citizen but had relatives back in china would be disqualified

Not so. The Constitution is very clear on eligibility requirements for the President. A natural born American citizen of Chinese descent who otherwise satisfies the requirements in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is perfectly eligible to run for the office. If there is concern about potential leverage foreign states have over that candidate--as there rightly would be if our natural born American had close family in PRC--voters might vote for someone else. My position is that such a motivation on the part of the voters is ethical.

> I accept that I do not qualify for a high security clearance because I’m married to a Chinese national. I don’t think that should have any bearing on any other jobs that don’t require such clearances (nor my wife nor my son should be subject to such restrictions).

First, I agree that your or your son's relationship to a Chinese national should not be sufficient grounds to deny you or your son any given job. My position is that a narrowly tailored policy to reject candidates with high risk of coercion from sensitive positions, or to limit such employees' access to sensitive data, is probably OK. Having close family residing in PRC unfortunately does raise the risk of coercive pressure being applied. If your wife has no surviving close relatives in PRC and she never goes to visit, you and your son should be assessed to have no greater vulnerability to coercion than any other citizen with otherwise similar circumstances (debts, addictions, etc.).

Second, I am curious why you disagree completely, yet accept that your relationship with your wife may disqualify you from holding a government security clearance. That means you accept that the government has an interest in protecting classified information from foreign powers, and that your relationship raises your risk profile. Do you not accept that private companies have an interest in protecting their IP and customer data from theft or sabotage? Or do you not accept that your relationship also raises your risk profile for these positions? Just because a position may not require a clearance does not mean that position is not highly sensitive to a potential insider threat. And unfortunately the PLA's targets are not restricted to intelligence agencies; they target virtually every sector of our economy.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#135
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there aren't that many countries. turning the black-list into a white-list is not hard, so it really wouldn't make any practical difference.

There are a lot of countries.

there are about 250 or so. it's not hard to make a complete list and drop the few undesired ones.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#136
post #18

See https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/merge_requests/... for more discussions. Here's one from sytses (CEO/co-founder) > @cciresi this is a request from a customer considering using GitLab.com. @mmcb has more context on the why. We should probably add that to the MR. Probably the US government or something like that?

>Probably the US government or something like that? The requirement to block some class of people off from some customers is nothing new, and back at Sun there was separate Sun Federal which was dedicated for such clean business. GitLab's approach (and i think it is just a start of the trend in the industry, time to get rid of the accent :) while theatrically good isn't practically efficient. A Chinese or Russian res…

It's about two steps away from intermittent camps.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, technically it is discrimination, but not racism. I.e. you can still hire a Japanese developer, and with a Chinese regime change you might be able to hire Chinese developers. However, federal law prohibits discrimination based on national origin. This is a touchy subject, but maybe this no longer makes sense? As burfrog pointed out, a Chinese employee living in America isn't free from Chinese control; the gov't…

It doesn’t matter. As long as a security clearance isn’t required, discriminating based on notational origin is a big no no from an ethical perspective, even if it was legal. I hope we learned our lesson during WW2.

If a security clearance requirement suddenly makes it allowable it argues that it maybe isn't unethical, unless the argument is implicitly that it is ok to ask for unethical things when involving a security clearance?

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#139
post #58

Ok, that discussion made it clearer for me, and I am kind of behind @cciresi at that point: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/issues/5555#not... They have a customer that required the personal data they'll give to Gitlab not be handled by people living in Russia and China. Could be a group doing humanitarian or journalistic work. That's actually an interesting conundrum: you want to hire a company, need to…

>Could be a group doing humanitarian or journalistic work

They speak about revenue, so I'm sure that's not the case. I bet it's a commercial company with sensitive data, probably gov/mil contractor with strict obligations to their customer.

And someone at their management doesn't understand Intelligence 101: they don't reach for your data from the country of origin.

Re: Gitlab considers not hiring SREs and Support Engineers in China and Russia

#140
Anyone knows how to migrate gitlab-ce to gogs? Since US government accuse Huawei 5G of monitoring and Edward Snowden actually shows that it is US government doing such thing. I believe this is the same thing: when Gitlab making the decision which hints Chinese or Russian will leak customer data, the truth may be that the US government has always been able to access such data. Although the gitlab-ce is the open source version, but it is released by gitlab company and I cannot trust it anymore, so I want to migrate my long running self hosted gitlab-ce to gogs.
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